Mary Jane Kelly found?

[Sally]

That should say all the daughters of Edward and sisters of John btw.

Perhaps that indicates that the family knew that Elizabeth was dead. Although I suppose it could just as easily have been a natural conclusion if she had been missing for over 20 years.

[packers stem]

I, for one, don't ignore Maxwell and Lewis. I did suggest some time back that their sightings were a reason to query Bond's estimate of the time of death, rather than to question the identity of the victim.

A friend of mine who is a master joiner gave the opinion that the external injuries to MJK could have been caused in seconds with a draw knife. I think it was Bond who (as a doctor) said a minimum of two hours to inflict all the injuries. It would be interesting to have the opinion of a butcher on the same issue. If the answer was, for the sake of argument, '20 minutes' then there is no need to discard Maxwell and Lewis as unreliable or mistaken witness (or to postulate that MJK murdered a doppelganger in order to disappear). She could have left London and, if need be, changed her name. Easily done without the need for a substitute victim.

Hi Bridewell
Well not ignoring maxwell and Lewis is a start anyway...phew
Otherwise what's the point in looking into the case at all, ruling out the best witnesses isn't the way to proceed with anything. Glad we're agreed on that.
As I've mentioned earlier the time of death I believe is well dictated by the contents of the stomach.
I've never known 'fish and potatoes ' as a breakfast meal...far more likely to be an evening meal.I'm sure most would agree on this count.The digestion of fish and potatoes should take somewhere between 1 and 4 hours.... In my view its highly likely the victim had her meal around midnight or so to place the TOD back around the 3 or 4 am again...so now what do we have?
As for identification..
"the poor woman's nose had been cut off and her face gashed and mutilated so that it was quite BEYOND RECOGNITION" were the words of Mccarthy...a man who knew her well being her landlord.Clearly if he had been asked to identify her when the door opened...he could not.
As for toes etc....Oh dear..really.
There are 'super recognisers' we really can't presume that Barnett was one. I could certainly say that I could not recognise anyone by feet or hands unless there were definite identifying marks, like tattoos or a deformity.This includes my long term partners so obviously it depends on the observational qualities of the identifier...

[Debra A]

Thanks very much, Gareth.
This 1908 article is saying then that it is known that all the sisters of Edward Davies and John Weston Davies are now dead? That would include Elizabeth if I'm understanding what it says correctly?

That should say all the daughters of Edward and sisters of John btw.

[Debra A]

Yes I found that one too I am sure you have the right Hannah. The Mary I found was married to John Jones b1833 who married a Mary Davies around 1881. He married quite a few times. They were both born and lived in Talyllyn John was a quarry worker. With genealogy one sees a bigger picture of the family.
I also found (Harry) Henry McBain the man mentioned in the divorce, although his name is transcribed M Bain incorrectly. In 1891 he was in a large lodging house in 47 Campbell road, Upper Holloway. He was born in Edinburgh 1844, single and was a baker.
I think Elizabeth must have either changed her name or disappeared before 1891 as I have tried different names or places too, with no luck at all.

Pat........

Excellent work on McBain, Pat! It would be great if you could post those records.

[Debra A]

From the article:

"The two sons, Messrs Edward Davies, Aberangell, and John Weston Davies, Gloucester, are staying to mourn after her. The only surviving daughter is the widow of the late Rev Griffith Hughes. She was in the Khassia Hills with her husband for ten years, and came to Rhos to attend to her sister in her last hours."

Thanks very much, Gareth.
This 1908 article is saying then that it is known that all the sisters of Edward Davies and John Weston Davies are now dead? That would include Elizabeth if I'm understanding what it says correctly?

[Paddy]

Yes I found that one too I am sure you have the right Hannah. The Mary I found was married to John Jones b1833 who married a Mary Davies around 1881. He married quite a few times. They were both born and lived in Talyllyn John was a quarry worker. With genealogy one sees a bigger picture of the family.
I also found (Harry) Henry McBain the man mentioned in the divorce, although his name is transcribed M Bain incorrectly. In 1891 he was in a large lodging house in 47 Campbell road, Upper Holloway. He was born in Edinburgh 1844, single and was a baker.
I think Elizabeth must have either changed her name or disappeared before 1891 as I have tried different names or places too, with no luck at all.

Pat........

[Livia]

I think it was Hannah.




A few children not included in the above family, perhaps they died young.

From the 1891 census:

David L Price 35
Hannah Price 36
Edward S Price 13
David A Price 10
John Weston Price 9
Margaret M D Price 8
Matilda Ann Price 5
Phillip Hart Price 4
Sarah Ann Jones 17
Samuel Davies 17

[Paddy]

Elizabeth Davies

I was thinking about why Mr Weston-Davies father was so reluctant to talk about Elizabeth.
I do hope Mr West Davies does not mind my trawling his genealogy. I came up with a few possibilities.
She obviously met a bad end or done something bad to affect him so.
I found a few possibles that could fit.
Around 1906 a John Birmingham was charged with murdering his common law wife Elizabeth Davies. He lived in Wedmore street Upper Holloway and was a general dealer.
In Cannes France an Elizabeth Davies dropped a candle on herself and burnt to death (however this was a later date which I cant remember) They were on FMP newspaper search if anyone wants to look.
I can understand Mr Weston Davies puzzlement at this ladys life as it does seem strange. More so the fact that she married as Jones. I am sure I found one of her sisters in Talyllin married to a Mr Jones he was a Quarryworker.
I will try to locate it.
Pat.......

[Robert]

Thank you Gareth.

EWD's brother JWD was living in Wigan in 1911.

[Sam Flynn]

The article is an obit for a "Mrs D S Price", no full name given, but her husband is named as "Mr D L Price". Don't know if that helps - I doubt it, given that none of the daughters you mention had the initials "D S"

From the article:

"The two sons, Messrs Edward Davies, Aberangell, and John Weston Davies, Gloucester, are staying to mourn after her. The only surviving daughter is the widow of the late Rev Griffith Hughes. She was in the Khassia Hills with her husband for ten years, and came to Rhos to attend to her sister in her last hours."

[Robert]

We know that Abberline investigated the pipe found in the room and established that it was Barnett's. I dare say he asked Barnett about any clothes found in the room and, perhaps more importantly, the other women in the Court.

[c.d.]

In addition to the body, there was also the chemise she was wearing. It is quite possible that Barnett was familiar with that as well.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I could ID my wife by her toes too. I suspect I could identify her by the nail of her little toe.

There is a supposedly true story of two senators walking down the hall in the U.S. Senate. The one senator was bald on top. The other senator reached out and rubbed the top of the bald senator's head and said "you know, the top of your head feels just like my wife's butt." The bald senator immediately reached up to rub his own head and replied "hey you're right, it does."

c.d.

[GUT]

Too much information

I just find it strange that people doubt Joe could ID Mary by her eyes, or ear or hair.

I know I could ID My wife by her nose, or her eyes or yes her hair (I suspect hers and Mary's were a similar color). The scar on her left knee I would know anywhere.

I had an uncle who had a leg removed, after the surgery the leg was taken away under a cover, on a tray, the sole was visible his little girl, then about 4 years old said, hey nanna there's daddy's foot, she could see he sole of his foot, but had no doubt it was daddy's. (the staff should have been shot for taking it past the family but that's another issue).

[Sam Flynn]

Thank you, Gareth. I had an inklng it was a sister...but which one?! Elizabeth was the daughter of Edward and sister of John Weston..One other died young and the article mentions three daughters....is it Matilda, Hannah or Elizabeth?

The article is an obit for a "Mrs D S Price", no full name given, but her husband is named as "Mr D L Price". Don't know if that helps - I doubt it, given that none of the daughters you mention had the initials "D S"