Mary Jane Kelly found?

[Penhalion]

Originally posted by packers stem: Ever wondered why she walked the opposite way to her usual lodging area on being released?
Do you not think that an arranged meeting with someone to be a possibility?
No need for any spectacularly perfect timing at all


Except, she was falling down drunk when she went into the cell, she had no watch, and I suspect there was no clock in her cell. How would she know when to 'sober up' in order to be released in time for the meeting? Even when she was released she was probably still woozy from the drink so I like the idea of her going somewhere to finish sobering up and not going home to at least an argument if not out right violence.

[belinda]

Back to the hair, which is surprisingly untouched above the forehead, I have noticed that many women go back to the hairstyles of their 20s and wear it that way because they know how to manage it and it suits them. Nothing scientific here, just what I've observed. Mary's hairstyle, ringlet-like curls above the forehead appears to have been popular in the 1860s. Most girls put up their hair between the ages of 15 and 17. (The equivilant of boys going into long trousers for those of us who remember short trousers and being perceived as an adult for those who don't).

I have been looking at hairstyles of the 1800s and the only one which matched Mary's was this one from 1867. (Which I don't seem to be able to attach - will have to await help from one of my brood).

Anyway, pressing on, say that Mary was about 15 when she put her hair up, that would make her in her late thirties when she died. Celts often age well, and can look a good deal younger than their age. (Hate to boast here, but I am often taken for quite a bit younger than I am, leading to some embarrassing moments). Even Polly and Liz, although not celts were taken to be much younger than they were. So Mary could be a good deal older than she claimed to be, and looking for her in the records as a 25 year old wouldn't fit.

Best wishes
C4

Just a point. Mary was known for her long hair which she left loose (as per witness statements) hanging "almost to her waist".
I too have a strong Celtic background and am regularly taken for ten years younger than my actual age. Mary may have been older it's certainly not uncommon for women to obfuscate about their age. I rarely correct people about mine! In 1867 the middle part hair style was still very popular. Think Queen Victoria. I personally can't see curls in that photo.

ETA: Is this the kind of thing you mean?

http://www.hairboutique.com/tips/VictoriaBangs_250.jpg

[curious4]

Hairstyles

Back to the hair, which is surprisingly untouched above the forehead, I have noticed that many women go back to the hairstyles of their 20s and wear it that way because they know how to manage it and it suits them. Nothing scientific here, just what I've observed. Mary's hairstyle, ringlet-like curls above the forehead appears to have been popular in the 1860s. Most girls put up their hair between the ages of 15 and 17. (The equivilant of boys going into long trousers for those of us who remember short trousers and being perceived as an adult for those who don't).

I have been looking at hairstyles of the 1800s and the only one which matched Mary's was this one from 1867. (Which I don't seem to be able to attach - will have to await help from one of my brood).

Anyway, pressing on, say that Mary was about 15 when she put her hair up, that would make her in her late thirties when she died. Celts often age well, and can look a good deal younger than their age. (Hate to boast here, but I am often taken for quite a bit younger than I am, leading to some embarrassing moments). Even Polly and Liz, although not celts were taken to be much younger than they were. So Mary could be a good deal older than she claimed to be, and looking for her in the records as a 25 year old wouldn't fit.

Best wishes
C4

[belinda]

Why couldn't Kate, hoping to avoid a thrashing from John Kelly as she put it, have been making her way to the casual ward at Mile End?

Good point. Had I been her I'd have been in no hurry to go home to a beating

[GUT]

Why couldn't Kate, hoping to avoid a thrashing from John Kelly as she put it, have been making her way to the casual ward at Mile End?

Now you want to use common sense.

[Rosella]

Why couldn't Kate, hoping to avoid a thrashing from John Kelly as she put it, have been making her way to the casual ward at Mile End?

[packers stem]

I don't think MJK's fear was anything more than the fear the other women of that neighborhood felt at the time.

I don't think that any of the women were specifically targeted. I believe they were all victims of opportunity. The timing on Catherine Eddowes would have had to be spectacularly perfect for someone to have targeted her ahead of time. The only reason MJK was so thoroughly destroyed is that she was the only one with a private room to take her john to.

Hi Penhalion
Ever wondered why she walked the opposite way to her usual lodging area on being released?
Do you not think that an arranged meeting with someone to be a possibility?
No need for any spectacularly perfect timing at all

[packers stem]

Packers Stem,

Actually there is no evidence Mary was prostituting herself either. She was a former prostitute, she most likely was resorting to it again, just no proof.

Cheers
DRoy

Hi DRoy
I agree totally,my point was about someone asking about her whereabouts

[DRoy]

Not only that, who's to say Nichols and Chapman didn't agree to be 'Mary Kelly' for a few minutes to get their doss money if that's what the client wanted.... Stride and Eddowes are a different matter... No evidence of them resorting to prostitution.Just being poor and living in that area doesn't automatically mean they're prostitutes
Would this explain Kelly's fear of someone but no one in particular? Had word got to her that someone had been asking about her? All possible

Packers Stem,

Actually there is no evidence Mary was prostituting herself either. She was a former prostitute, she most likely was resorting to it again, just no proof.

Cheers
DRoy

[Natasha]

I don't think MJK's fear was anything more than the fear the other women of that neighborhood felt at the time.

I don't think that any of the women were specifically targeted. I believe they were all victims of opportunity. The timing on Catherine Eddowes would have had to be spectacularly perfect for someone to have targeted her ahead of time. The only reason MJK was so thoroughly destroyed is that she was the only one with a private room to take her john to.

I believe that that they were targeted because they were known to the killer. Less complications for the killer, easy to gain confidence etc.

[Penhalion]

I don't think MJK's fear was anything more than the fear the other women of that neighborhood felt at the time.

I don't think that any of the women were specifically targeted. I believe they were all victims of opportunity. The timing on Catherine Eddowes would have had to be spectacularly perfect for someone to have targeted her ahead of time. The only reason MJK was so thoroughly destroyed is that she was the only one with a private room to take her john to.

[packers stem]

I can't see it as all that unusual for clients to ask around if anyone has seen Mary Kelly - she appears to have been more desirable than many of her class. It's not like Craig was likely to introduce himself to all those other women, they wouldn't have a clue who was asking - just another client?

Not only that, who's to say Nichols and Chapman didn't agree to be 'Mary Kelly' for a few minutes to get their doss money if that's what the client wanted.... Stride and Eddowes are a different matter... No evidence of them resorting to prostitution.Just being poor and living in that area doesn't automatically mean they're prostitutes
Would this explain Kelly's fear of someone but no one in particular? Had word got to her that someone had been asking about her? All possible

[Wickerman]

I can't see it as all that unusual for clients to ask around if anyone has seen Mary Kelly - she appears to have been more desirable than many of her class. It's not like Craig was likely to introduce himself to all those other women, they wouldn't have a clue who was asking - just another client?

It's a common flaw with these theories and one that has been well over used.

[GUT]

Also would someone not remember a man asking about Kelly?

Perhaps that's why he had to kill them.

[Natasha]

I agree with Andrea, why go to the trouble of killing the others to get to MJK?
He had no reason to kill the others really, and of course what would be the point of putting himself in a position to get caught for murdering the others before getting to his intended victim?

I feel that the murderer targeted these women specifically, I base that loosely on the possibility that the killer knew each of his victims. So that being said I don't really believe Craig had anything to do with the murders. If he did gain their confidence to get info about MJK's whereabouts, why go to the trouble of killing them after? No I'm not convinced he was the killer.

Also would someone not remember a man asking about Kelly?