Miller's Court after Kelly...........

[Michael W Richards]

Also destroyed at that time was (Little) Paternoster Row. There was a proposal to reinstate it as part of the most recent redevelopment, but that fell on deaf ears. Shame. I would have gladly drunk an overpriced coffee or two there.

Ah, the address of one Joseph Isaacs, taken just days before Kellys murder and vacated the night of. The real Astrakan Coat man.

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, the address of one Joseph Isaacs, taken just days before Kellys murder and vacated the night of. The real Astrakan Coat man.

Isaacs, a man of no fixed abode who lived in various doss-houses, is unlikely to have owned such fine clothes as Astrakhan Man. Also unlike Astrakhan Man, who was described by Hutchinson as being of average height (5'6"), Isaacs was of "short stature", and a petty criminal with a penchant for stealing musical instruments. At Isaacs' trial for stealing a watch on 5th December 1888, the police requested "the fullest inquiry as to the prisoner's movements on the night of Nov 8; for that purpose he was remanded, but Detective Sergeant Record, H Division, said that so far there was no further charge against the prisoner" (Daily/Evening News 15th Dec 1888)

[MrBarnett]

Ah, the address of one Joseph Isaacs, taken just days before Kellys murder and vacated the night of. The real Astrakan Coat man.

Indeed.

My interest is in a later resident, though: Billy Maher/Meers/Myers.

[Michael W Richards]

Isaacs, a man of no fixed abode who lived in various doss-houses, is unlikely to have owned such fine clothes as Astrakhan Man. Also unlike Astrakhan Man, who was described by Hutchinson as being of average height (5'6"), Isaacs was of "short stature", and a petty criminal with a penchant for stealing musical instruments. At Isaacs' trial for stealing a watch on 5th December 1888, the police requested "the fullest inquiry as to the prisoner's movements on the night of Nov 8; for that purpose he was remanded, but Detective Sergeant Record, H Division, said that so far there was no further charge against the prisoner" (Daily/Evening News 15th Dec 1888)

Well he did have an astrakhan trimmed coat, and I don't put any credence in Hutchs description of what he may or may not have seen anyway. For all I know he just chose someone wearing a coat like that to implicate Issacs or someone else locally. He arrived in LPR just a few days before her murder and left the same night, without any notice to his landlady and in fact leaving behind some of his belongings. Ones that were help when tracing him down.

Hutch came forward with a purpose, to assist in the investigation of Marys murder doesn't seem plausible with a 4 day delay.

In the Berner Street case Louis states that he and Issac[s] went out looking for help, yet Isaac Kozebrodski says Louis sent him out alone for help...around 12:45. Might there be a connection to someone named Isaacs there too? Local Jew...large meeting of local Jews...seems at least possible to me, and it would give people some albeit weak ammo who seek to protect Liz Strides status as a Canonical by connecting her to another Canonical by someone.

Sidebar...just sayin.

[Sam Flynn]

Well he did have an astrakhan trimmed coat

I'm not so sure that he did, Michael. The (single?) source we have for this is the Daily News of 8th December, which says of Isaacs that "a look out was kept for the prisoner, whose appearance certainly answered the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat". The report refers to Hutchinson's man wearing said coat; it doesn't unambiguously say that Isaacs was wearing one. He could have resembled Hutch's man in a number of aspects - facial hair, build, complexion, eye colour, hair colour, ethnicity - but it doesn't mean that he had to be wearing the same sort of coat.

Incidentally, a new astrakhan coat would cost in excess of £10 in the 1880s, around £1,300 in today's money, and I daresay that even a second-hand one would have cost a small fortune. I find it unlikely that any doss-house dweller would have owned so ostentatious an item and, even if they did, they'd be far better off selling it than wearing it. Whoever Astrakhan Man was, assuming he existed, he was no dosser.

[Leanne]

I don't know, but it's not the former site of Dorset Street or Miller's Court, which were demolished in 1928 and built over twice or three times since then.

And less of the "Mr Know-everything" tone, please.

https://www.facebook.com/SaveTheLondonFruitandWoolExchange/photos/a.953855194625522/1060898340587873/?type=3&theater

If Dorset street or Duval Street was built over in 1929, and there were no traces of Millers Court left, why did the poster Charlie Gillan complain about the spot where Mary Jane Kelly was killed being rendered undocumentable when the Fruit And Wool Exchange building was being destroyed?

[Sam Flynn]

https://www.facebook.com/SaveTheLond...type=3&theater

If Dorset street or Duval Street was built over in 1929, and there were no traces of Millers Court left, why did the poster Charlie Gillan complain about the spot where Mary Jane Kelly was killed being rendered undocumentable when the Fruit And Wool Exchange building was being destroyed?

For the same reason that someone might complain about building over the spot where Julius Caesar landed in Britain, or Boudicca once drove her chariot. The original historical sites may have been built over many times since, but that doesn't change the romantic attachment one might have to such places.

[MrBarnett]

For the same reason that someone might complain about building over the spot where Julius Caesar landed in Britain, or Boudicca once drove her chariot. The original historical sites may have been built over many times since, but that doesn't change the romantic attachment one might have to such places.

But there may well have been archaeological traces left. Look at how much Roman and mediaeval stuff is unearthed every time a new building goes up in the City.

[Sam Flynn]

But there may well have been archaeological traces left.

Quite possibly, Gary, but nothing too revelatory from a Kelly perspective, I'd wager. That aside, my main point was that one can still romantically refer to a site by what once stood there, even if it's been built over many times since - which certainly applies to Dorset Street and Miller's Court.

In case you haven't seen the earlier dialogue between Leanne and me, here's the back story. Leanne found a video clip of a Ripper tour in 2011, posted by someone who believed he/she was standing in Dorset Street a few yards from where Kelly was killed - possibly because the tour guide, who certainly made a few howlers in this short clip, was doling out some BS to please his punters.

However, the party was standing in an old alleyway, which certainly wasn't the service road between White's Row Car Park and the Fruit & Wool Exchange, the latter of which was built over the former site of (north) Dorset Street in 1929 and was recently demolished (2015) and built over yet again.

Leanne has found other recent references to "Miller's Court" and "Dorset Street", which are equally misleading because - as we both know - the Miller's Court and (north) Dorset Street that Mary Kelly knew were flattened in 1928, and the remaining southern part of Dorset/Duval Street was demolished around half a century ago.

Any photograph, video or reference to Miller's Court or Dorset St made in the past few decades should only be seen in the "Cæsar/Boudicca woz 'ere" sense.

[MrBarnett]

Quite possibly, Gary, but nothing too revelatory from a Kelly perspective, I'd wager. That aside, my main point was that one can still romantically refer to a site by what once stood there, even if it's been built over many times since - which certainly applies to Dorset Street and Miller's Court.

In case you haven't seen the earlier dialogue between Leanne and me, here's the back story. Leanne found a video clip of a Ripper tour in 2011, posted by someone who believed he/she was standing in Dorset Street a few yards from where Kelly was killed - possibly because the tour guide, who certainly made a few howlers in this short clip, was doling out some BS to please his punters.

However, the party was standing in an old alleyway, which certainly wasn't the service road between White's Row Car Park and the Fruit & Wool Exchange, the latter of which was built over the former site of (north) Dorset Street in 1929 and was recently demolished (2015) and built over yet again.

Leanne has found other recent references to "Miller's Court" and "Dorset Street", which are equally misleading because - as we both know - the Miller's Court and (north) Dorset Street that Mary Kelly knew were flattened in 1928, and the remaining southern part of Dorset/Duval Street was demolished around half a century ago.

Any photograph, video or reference to Miller's Court or Dorset St made in the past few decades should only be seen in the "Cæsar/Boudicca woz 'ere" sense.

Hi Gareth,

I did see your exchange with Leanne. You are right, of course, the video clip was taken in Parliament Court - as it pans round you can see the shutters of ‘Grapeshots’ Pub/Bar in Artillery Passage.

It just occurred to me that the footings of the houses in Dorset Street and Miller’s Court may have been revealed when the site was being cleared for the current building.

Gary

[Sam Flynn]

It just occurred to me that the footings of the houses in Dorset Street and Miller’s Court may have been revealed when the site was being cleared for the current building.

If they were still there, Gary. Given that the Fruit & Wool Exchange seemed to have been more substantial than the houses of Dorset Street, and I daresay building standards had improved too, perhaps they'd have dug the Exchange's foundations somewhat deeper, taking up most of Dorset Street's footings in the process. But that's just supposition on my part.

[MrBarnett]

If they were still there, Gary. Given that the Fruit & Wool Exchange seemed to have been more substantial than the houses of Dorset Street, and I daresay building standards had improved too, perhaps they'd have dug the Exchange's foundations somewhat deeper, taking up most of Dorset Street's footings in the process. But that's just supposition on my part.

So deep footings across the whole of the site rather than just under the weight-bearing perimeter?

[Sam Flynn]

So deep footings across the whole of the site rather than just under the weight-bearing perimeter?

Certainly not at 13 Miller's Court, which was ostensibly an outhouse. And, arguably, not anywhere else of interest which were basically rickety 19th (or earlier) century dwellings.

[MrBarnett]

Certainly not at 13 Miller's Court, which was ostensibly an outhouse. And, arguably, not anywhere else of interest which were basically rickety 19th (or earlier) century dwellings.

My question was whether the footings of the Fruit and Wool exchange would have covered the whole site and obliterated everything from the late 17th century to 1929. I doubt it.

[Sam Flynn]

I doubt it too, but it's of no bearing on the matter I was discussing with Leanne. Miller's Court and north Dorset Street as Kelly would have known it were obliterated in the 1920s, as was the rest by the end of the 1960s.