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Miller's Court after Kelly...........

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  • Miller's Court after Kelly...........

    I'm curious to know whether 13 Miller's Court was ever used as a residence, following Kelly's murder? Does anyone know?

    I found this about the room above..

    "No. 20, Miller's Court, the room directly above no. 13 (which had been occupied by Elizabeth Prater in 1888), when a young woman named Kitty Ronan was found with her throat cut.[16] It was believed that Ronan was a prostitute, and, as in the killing of Mary Jane Kelly, her murderer was never found."

  • #2
    Oh yes, PC, the room was used. In fact I believe there is one news article in which some people are allowed to enter the room while the residents are there, and the bloodstains are still on the partition.

    Comment


    • #3
      Indeed it was, and the business continued to be operated (if not officially owned) by Mary Kelly's landlord John McCarthy, right up until it was closed for demolition around 1928. There are various stories about the grim prospect of renting out Kelly's final address - some people talk about bloodstains remaining on the wall, others claim that McCarthy increased the rent on that room alone due to its notoriety; but at the same time, other stories claim that he was offered a good sum of money to allow the creators of a stage play about the murders to use the actual furniture from the room, and refused. So who knows. All 3 claims are probably more or less apocryphal, some date back to the 1880s but surely show more than a little artistic licence.

      As well as Kitty Ronan (1909), Millers Court was also where a woman named Kate Marshall stabbed her sister, Eliza Roberts, to death (1901) and also where a woman named Jane Williams died in 1927; a man was charged with her murder having apparently confessed when drunk, but Williams was eventually found to have died from natural causes.

      As estate agents would say, the place certainly had 'character'.

      The numbering may have changed in the court over the years after 1888, but 13 seems to have remained 13. Prater's self stated address in 1888 of number 20 has been claimed to have been incorrect and the room she actually lived in to have been number 19, or number 20 was correct but was not the room above Mary Kelly's (which was perhaps 19 after all) but the one on the first floor on the opposite side of the court. But believe me, that way madness lies! I'm nowhere near up to speed on all the various confusions about that, I'm sure someone else would help you out if you needed.

      This pre-crash article gives you some background on the history of Millers Court after 1888 and some of the related press stories. You may be particularly interested in the mention of Kathleen Blake Watkins, a journalist who visited all the murder sites in 1891 and spoke to a woman named "Lottie" who was living in number 13 Millers Court at that time. The various entries on this page also give a good idea of the various issues with the numbering.

      http://forum.casebook.org/archive/index.php/t-5254.html

      Info on Williams can be found over at jtrforums where it was uncovered by the late Chris Scott.

      Comment


      • #4
        "When I went upstairs I saw Kitty was lying in bed fully clothed. There was blood on the bedclothes. The room did not appear to have been disturbed in any way and there were no signs as if there has been a struggle. It looked to me as if she had been strangled first, and then her throat cut afterwards"

        http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-kit.html

        Her mouth was stuffed with a handkerchief which reminds me of torso's plugging. I wonder if the man who confessed to the murder actually did it? He came forward to confess than plead not guilty (maybe because his story was that kitty Ronan tried to rob him).

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        • #5
          http://eastlondonhistory.com/2012/11...-roman-murder/

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          • #6
            Many thanks guys, that all makes VERY interesting reading!!!!!!

            It also beggars the question, are there any other photographs of number 13. Other than the well used ones?

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            • #7
              A prominent Ripperologist knows of the existence of a couple of photographs, in private hands.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Robert View Post
                A prominent Ripperologist knows of the existence of a couple of photographs, in private hands.


                I wonder when the real interest in the Ripper case kicked in, is it a relatively modern concept (and by that I mean post 1928, when Miller's Court was knocked down).

                What about places like Hanbury Street, Dutfield's Yard?

                29 Hanbury Street seems to have been in existence until fairly recently as it features in the documentary The London that nobody knows.... and yet it always seems that it's always the same photographs used?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Interest in the crimes definitely waned after the initial few years of excitement, not really recovering until, I suppose, the late 50s/60s. It's a real tragedy that so much has been lost, but I guess you can't blame former generations for not realising that they could preserve something that future generations would give their eye teeth for.

                  We do have one photo of the interior of Dutfield's Yard, thanks to Philip Hutchinson.

                  We have one photo of the passageway at Hanbury St.

                  I don't think we have any of Tabram's landing.

                  And of course no photo of the interior of 13 Room (apart from the body pics).

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PC2267 View Post
                    I'm curious to know whether 13 Miller's Court was ever used as a residence, following Kelly's murder? Does anyone know?

                    I found this about the room above..

                    "No. 20, Miller's Court, the room directly above no. 13 (which had been occupied by Elizabeth Prater in 1888), when a young woman named Kitty Ronan was found with her throat cut.[16] It was believed that Ronan was a prostitute, and, as in the killing of Mary Jane Kelly, her murderer was never found."
                    If you think that's fun, try this one...

                    Eddowes was said to have stayed in the shed that was boarded up next door to #13.

                    All the other victims, except maybe Nicholas, stayed on Dorset St., at one time or another.

                    A letter sent to the Ipswith Journal claimed to JtR willing to kill again the next weekend, the one on which MJK died. The return address was opposite or close too Miller's court.
                    Bona fide canonical and then some.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Robert View Post
                      Interest in the crimes definitely waned after the initial few years of excitement, not really recovering until, I suppose, the late 50s/60s. It's a real tragedy that so much has been lost, but I guess you can't blame former generations for not realising that they could preserve something that future generations would give their eye teeth for.

                      We do have one photo of the interior of Dutfield's Yard, thanks to Philip Hutchinson.

                      We have one photo of the passageway at Hanbury St.

                      I don't think we have any of Tabram's landing.

                      And of course no photo of the interior of 13 Room (apart from the body pics).



                      Oh for a time machine

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                      • #12
                        Except we wouldn't want Jack stowing away and hitching a ride back here.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PC2267 View Post
                          I'm curious to know whether 13 Miller's Court was ever used as a residence, following Kelly's murder? Does anyone know?

                          I found this about the room above..

                          "No. 20, Miller's Court, the room directly above no. 13 (which had been occupied by Elizabeth Prater in 1888), when a young woman named Kitty Ronan was found with her throat cut.[16] It was believed that Ronan was a prostitute, and, as in the killing of Mary Jane Kelly, her murderer was never found."
                          This may be what you are referring to? R. Harding Davis meeting with Inspector Henry Moore. The whole report is found here.

                          A HORRIBLE SITUATION FOR "JACK THE RIPPER.
                          "This was about the worst of the murders," said the inspector when they reached Dorset-street. "He cut the skeleton so clean of flesh that when I got here I could hardly tell whether it was a man or a woman. He hung the different parts of the body on nails and over the backs of chairs. It must have taken him an hour and a half in all. And when he was ready to go he found the door was jammed and had to make his escape through the larger of those two windows." Imagine how this man felt when he tried the door and found it was locked; that was before he thought of the window - believing that he was locked in with that bleeding skeleton and the strips of flesh that he had hung so fantastically about the room, that he had trapped himself beside his victim, and had helped to put the rope around his own neck. One would think the shock of the moment would have lasted for years to come, and kept him in hiding. But it apparently did not affect him that way, for he has killed five women since then. We knocked at the door and a woman opened it. She spoke to some-one inside, and then told "Mister Inspector" to come in. It was a bare whitewashed room with a bed in one corner. A man was in the bed, but he sat up and welcomed us good naturedly. The inspector apologized for the intrusion, but the occupant of the bed said it didn't matter, and obligingly traced out with his forefinger the streaks of blood upon the wall at his bedside. When he had done this he turned his face to the wall to go to sleep again, and the inspector ironically wished him pleasant dreams. I rather envied his nerve, and fancied waking up with those dark streaks a few inches from one's face."

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by tnb View Post
                            The numbering may have changed in the court over the years after 1888, but 13 seems to have remained 13. Prater's self stated address in 1888 of number 20 has been claimed to have been incorrect and the room she actually lived in to have been number 19, or number 20 was correct but was not the room above Mary Kelly's (which was perhaps 19 after all) but the one on the first floor on the opposite side of the court. But believe me, that way madness lies! I'm nowhere near up to speed on all the various confusions about that, I'm sure someone else would help you out if you needed.
                            I believe Mark Ripper discovered it was the Kate Roman murder that actually occurred in the first floor room opposite #13? Maybe that's where that particular part of the confusion about Prater living there stems from?
                            ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

                            I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It may well be Debs, as I said I've never really managed to get my head around the issue. But I'd believe Mark if he said pretty much anything so if so then that's good enough for me.

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