Did Mary know her killer?

[RockySullivan]

Would have hutch have seen bowyer at the tap...or would bowyer have noticed hutch loitering?

[GregBaron]

For whom the bell tolls...

for some reward
money from the police for walking around with them looking
15 minutes of fame
wanting to see the body
free drinks down the pub
money for his story from the press
sympathy
whatever...

I see Abby. I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures.

Do you think MJK knew Blotchy as a drinking pal or a customer? And if you think Blotchy is the fiend, what time do you think the murder took place?

Did he spend 3 hours in there before the 4 am death knell?

Perhaps he was waiting for Hutch and the others to clear the area before committing the dastardly deed....



Greg

[RockySullivan]

Hi Greg
for some reward
money from the police for walking around with them looking
15 minutes of fame
wanting to see the body
free drinks down the pub
money for his story from the press
sympathy
whatever...

Hi Abby, is 15 minutes worth opening himself up to being suspected of her murder if his plan didn't work out? It's a possibility

[Abby Normal]

But how Abby? Perhaps profit isn't the right word. He probably wanted to deflect suspicion by offering up the stereotypical unctuous Jew....

I like your idea about wanting to crash though....recall that it was raining and he supposedly walked a great deal....


Greg

Hi Greg
for some reward
money from the police for walking around with them looking
15 minutes of fame
wanting to see the body
free drinks down the pub
money for his story from the press
sympathy
whatever...

[GregBaron]

The Usual Suspect...

Later making up the story he saw her and Aman to profit somehow.

But how Abby? Perhaps profit isn't the right word. He probably wanted to deflect suspicion by offering up the stereotypical unctuous Jew....

I like your idea about wanting to crash though....recall that it was raining and he supposedly walked a great deal....


Greg

[Abby Normal]

That's an interesting take on it but quite unlikely. Why would Mary give hutch a freebie + share her bed? Have you ever heard of a john waiting outside a prostitutes window in hopes of a freebie? I didn't think they knew each other that well, and Kelly was asking hutch for $ not the other way around. It's possible but seems like an unrealistic scenario.

Hi Rocky and Rosella

Hutch probably never saw and spoke to mary that night, nor A-man. However, he probably was there a la Lewis.I would venture then that if he was NOT her killer then he was looking for a place to crash. He had no money, no place to stay and by his own admission knew Mary and gave her money from time to time, and was perhaps hoping she would help him out-return the favor. She was known to be kind hearted and let people stay at her place in a pinch, so maybe hutch knew this.

In this scenario, hes looking for somewhere to sleep, goes to her place, realizes shes with someone and goes out to wait for that person to leave.
That person Mary is with does not leave, so hutch gives up and leaves.
Later making up the story he saw her and Aman to profit somehow.

[RockySullivan]

Yes. Hutchinson knew Mary,lacked sixpence earlier so he couldn't hire her services. He waited hopefully outside Millers Court (he wasn't lurking outside her door) in case her client left and he could then go and see if he could get a freebie from her in her nice warm bed.

That's an interesting take on it but quite unlikely. Why would Mary give hutch a freebie + share her bed? Have you ever heard of a john waiting outside a prostitutes window in hopes of a freebie? I didn't think they knew each other that well, and Kelly was asking hutch for $ not the other way around. It's possible but seems like an unrealistic scenario.

[Rosella]

Yes. Hutchinson knew Mary,lacked sixpence earlier so he couldn't hire her services. He waited hopefully outside Millers Court (he wasn't lurking outside her door) in case her client left and he could then go and see if he could get a freebie from her in her nice warm bed.

[RockySullivan]

The issue of how the killer would enter and get to the bedside with Mary asleep facing the wall is also present, as is he issue of who called out from the court at 3:45am. All in all it is unlikely we have a case of break and enter that ends with silence, as heard by Prater and Lewis after the cry.

Which leaves 2 and 3, both of which indicate that Mary knew her killer.

I think permission is the winner myself, and that explains the startled "oh-murder" at her door as she shielded her eyes from the lamp light directly across the court from her door.

Cheers

But according to Prater she heard screams of murder. As in two or three. No one answers the door screaming Murder unless they are.....being murdered.

As for Hutch, how could any detective not realize no one stands outside a prostitutes apartment out of curiosity. He's either a peeping tom, waiting to rob Astrakhan or stalking/waiting to kill Kelly. Any other reasons?

[GregBaron]

I'll let myself out now...

I’m not sure it’s that cut and dried Michael.

Obviously the killer pulled the door shut and may have changed the latch on/off if he wanted, the condition of the door says nothing about how it was when he entered……..that is if we’re assuming Mary didn’t commit suicide…

I don’t know if you’ve ever witnessed a drunken stupor but people passed out from overindulging might sleep through an earthquake or monsoon without budging….I can easily see someone sneaking in at 4 a.m…

Since Blotchy was around at 1 a.m. he may have left at 2 or 3 after Mary passed out….

I don’t see how we can say with confidence that Mary knew and let in her killer. Blotchy may have stumbled off and Hutch or some other then let himself in…

Just sayin…


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

The thread question really has only three possible answers;

1. The killer broke in.
2. The killer entered with permission
3. The killer entered with the victim

There is no evidence that there was a forced entry before McCarthys display in the afternoon. The room was locked from the inside,.... the windows, and the spring latch was set at off. The issue of how the killer would enter and get to the bedside with Mary asleep facing the wall is also present, as is he issue of who called out from the court at 3:45am. All in all it is unlikely we have a case of break and enter that ends with silence, as heard by Prater and Lewis after the cry.

Which leaves 2 and 3, both of which indicate that Mary knew her killer.

I think permission is the winner myself, and that explains the startled "oh-murder" at her door as she shielded her eyes from the lamp light directly across the court from her door.

Cheers

[mklhawley]

Hello BFWG.

"It is unlikely that that there is any mileage in an author pitching a book to a publisher putting forward the premise that JTR was an anonymous short stout, shabbily dressed man with a blotchy face and a full carrotty moustache."

Well, there is already a book out that includes "Red" Jim McDermott as a suspect.

And his description is bang on with "Blotchy."

Cheers.
LC

So Lynn, was this book published before or after this:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4859

Mike

[barnflatwyngarde]

Hello BFWG. Thanks.

I wonder whether the search/suspicion against Blotchy ended when no pub could place his pail?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
My understanding is that the police could find no pub that could confirm that Mary had been in that night.

However she, and probably/possibly, Blotchy had clearly been drinking heavily, so the question is, where?

Blotchy's house*/local pub*/non-local pub*

*Delete where applicable.

[lynn cates]

pail

Hello BFWG. Thanks.

I wonder whether the search/suspicion against Blotchy ended when no pub could place his pail?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Blotchy should have been the Prime Suspect.

As is the case with every murder...the last person seen with the victim is automatically under suspicion. Like Sailor Man was in Kates case. And in the case of Liz Stride, without using the Inquest omitted Israel Schwartz's story, the man Liz is seen with by PC Smith. Browns sighting is clearly of the young couple others also noticed in the area at that time. Annies case is different because of Mrs Long and her remarks, but it would seem by the sounds and time given by Cadosche that the murder had already begun at the time Mrs Long says Annie was still out on the street. So we have no idea who to put in Annies, or Pollys company.

Cheers