Did Mary know her killer?

[DRoy]

As far as we know Mary Kelly had no other means of support, so if she needed to eat or drink, she had to do something to get it. Considering she had done nothing else but prostitute herself since being a teenager, what do you think her most likely option was?

Jon,

She most likely would prostitute herself to stay alive, I just don't think she was in a dire predicament that night that she would take a random unknown client to her room. There was no need to.

She had a roof over her head and a bed to sleep in. She also had food and drink that night (even if it came from a customer as part or full 'payment', there was no reason to take him home). News about the murders were read to her, she knew her home wasn't on a safe street nor in a safe area, and The Ripper was on the loose. Plus she bought a candle earlier that day.

Doesn't sound to me like someone so scared of how she's going to survive that she'd risk taking someone home (or allow in) that she didn't already know and trust.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon,

The odd thing of course being when he testified at the inquest three days later he said the sole reason he left her was because of Julia and then Harvey stayed in her room. The same police statement states that him being unable to provide money to MJK as another reason for leaving, yet at the inquest he says the opposite. Which version is true or a lie? As he spoke at the inquest does that mean his police statement is incorrect?

Yes, I am aware of the differences.
The way I read it is, when being interviewed by Abberline, it's a one-to-one situation - no publicity.
But then in court he is talking in front of the public and the press, so he toned it down a bit. The reason he gave was essentially the same, "because of Mrs Harvey", well Mrs Harvey was also a prostitute - the implication is the same.

My point being, I doubt MJK was so scared of paying her rent that she took a random unknown client home that night. She already owed weeks worth of rent, could have been charging fellow prostitutes for use of the room so she wouldn't have to prostitute herself, JTR was on the loose, etc.

As far as we know Mary Kelly had no other means of support, so if she needed to eat or drink, she had to do something to get it.
Considering she had done nothing else but prostitute herself since being a teenager, what do you think her most likely option was?

[DRoy]

Barnett said in his police statement that he left Kelly due to her,..."resorting to prostitution".

Thanks Jon,

The odd thing of course being when he testified at the inquest three days later he said the sole reason he left her was because of Julia and then Harvey stayed in her room. The same police statement states that him being unable to provide money to MJK as another reason for leaving, yet at the inquest he says the opposite. Which version is true or a lie? As he spoke at the inquest does that mean his police statement is incorrect?

Regardless, assuming she was a prostitute, we don't know how often she solicited, when she did, whether she used her room at all, etc. Most importantly we don't know any of that on the night before she was murdered nor the early morning when she was murdered.

My point being, I doubt MJK was so scared of paying her rent that she took a random unknown client home that night. She already owed weeks worth of rent, could have been charging fellow prostitutes for use of the room so she wouldn't have to prostitute herself, JTR was on the loose, etc.

Cheers
DRoy

[GUT]

Barnett said in his police statement that he left Kelly due to her,..."resorting to prostitution".

Which was probably "forced" on her when he lost his job.

[Wickerman]

Barnett said in his police statement that he left Kelly due to her,..."resorting to prostitution".

[DRoy]

Well we know Prater was a prostitute. Weren't most of the tenants in Kelly's building? Why would Kelly not be working? Seems pretty clear she was a prostitute...especially considering the ripper and all

Rocky,

Barnett wasn't gone long so why would MJK all of sudden think McCarthy was going to kick her out if she didn't prostitute herself and pay? Perhaps she was paying rent by allowing her friends to do business in her room.

Maybe she was a prostitute and had solicited that night, but there is no evidence of it. Possible, yes. Probable, to some. So no, sorry Rocky, it isn't "clear" and without evidence it is only speculation.

Cheers
DRoy

[Wickerman]

Yes. Hutchinson knew Mary,lacked sixpence earlier so he couldn't hire her services. He waited hopefully outside Millers Court (he wasn't lurking outside her door) in case her client left and he could then go and see if he could get a freebie from her in her nice warm bed.

By his own words, he knew her. And 2-3 yrs previous Kelly had lived in a house owned by a man who kept stables in Romford. So the potential for a connection is evident.
Though, it is hard to say why he stood outside for so long. First, we don't know the nature of their relationship, and second, we do not know what his character was.
If he had a dishonest streak in him he may have been waiting for Astrachan to emerge, and avail himself of anything worthy.
On the other hand he may have been intending to work on Kelly's generosity and beg for a place to stay overnight.
Either is possible.

[GUT]

Well we know Prater was a prostitute. Weren't most of the tenants in Kelly's building? Why would Kelly not be working? Seems pretty clear she was a prostitute...especially considering the ripper and all

Not specifically addressing your comments per se Rocky, but the topic itself I wonder why her death certificate lists her as a prostitute?

[RockySullivan]

Agreed. There is a reason MJK and Barnett got kicked out of their last place and why they were behind in rent again...because she wasn't 'working' (or at least not that much).

She is already far behind in rent, it's cold and rainy, and during the Ripper scare, so she's going to bring a customer home to her place? I think it more likely she was 'escorted' home by someone she considered trustworthy.

Cheers
DRoy

Well we know Prater was a prostitute. Weren't most of the tenants in Kelly's building? Why would Kelly not be working? Seems pretty clear she was a prostitute...especially considering the ripper and all

[DRoy]

Yeah, I must admit Im a bit of a stickler when people post comment after comment based on assumptions that have no foundation in any evidence anywhere . In this instance, the night of Nov 8th, 1888, there is no evidence Mary was soliciting, and since she lived with a man until the end of October who objected to her selling herself and who was supporting her financially, there is no evidence that while Barnett lived there Mary solicited regularly.

Her arrears is some evidence of that statement...(arrears that some continue to question despite the landlords statement that they existed)...and there is no evidence anywhere that shows us Mary started bringing clients into a room leased under her name after Barnett left.

Agreed. There is a reason MJK and Barnett got kicked out of their last place and why they were behind in rent again...because she wasn't 'working' (or at least not that much).

She is already far behind in rent, it's cold and rainy, and during the Ripper scare, so she's going to bring a customer home to her place? I think it more likely she was 'escorted' home by someone she considered trustworthy.

Cheers
DRoy

[GUT]

Sorry I thought you were saying the rate [or frequency] of clients staying over would be higher than for others but I now take it you mean she would charge more if they were staying the night.

[RockySullivan]

Why would it be any higher for her than any other prostitute with her own room?

Because if Kelly brought for instance Blotchy back to her room she's going to charge him for sex. Then he leaves and she can bring in Astrakhan and charge him for sex. I'm assuming it's going to cost more to pay her for the whole night right?

[GUT]

How often when Kelly brought clients to her apt were they sleeping over? I imagine this would be a higher rate than the usual

Why would it be any higher for her than any other prostitute with her own room?

[RockySullivan]

Hi Greg
50/50 she knew him as customer or friend (or potential boyfriend). Seems to me she knew him, even in passing.

And yes I think he is most likely than all the suspects to be the fiend. And I think the murder took place between 1:00 am and 4:00 am, more toward the latter per the screams.

And yes, perhaps he was waiting for things to quiet down before he struck-re the women coming and going, hutch coming into the court around 3:30ish, and per an article Debra Arif found-Bowyer in the court in the middle of the night also.

and/Or perhaps he was waiting for her to pass out.

How often when Kelly brought clients to her apt were they sleeping over? I imagine this would be a higher rate than the usual

[Abby Normal]

I see Abby. I suppose desperate times call for desperate measures.

Do you think MJK knew Blotchy as a drinking pal or a customer? And if you think Blotchy is the fiend, what time do you think the murder took place?

Did he spend 3 hours in there before the 4 am death knell?

Perhaps he was waiting for Hutch and the others to clear the area before committing the dastardly deed....



Greg

Hi Greg
50/50 she knew him as customer or friend (or potential boyfriend). Seems to me she knew him, even in passing.

And yes I think he is most likely than all the suspects to be the fiend. And I think the murder took place between 1:00 am and 4:00 am, more toward the latter per the screams.

And yes, perhaps he was waiting for things to quiet down before he struck-re the women coming and going, hutch coming into the court around 3:30ish, and per an article Debra Arif found-Bowyer in the court in the middle of the night also.

and/Or perhaps he was waiting for her to pass out.