Did Mary know her killer?

[Batman]

Maxwell, Kennedy, Hutchison are just getting there ten minutes of fame. Remove them and you have Cox and Lewis giving accounts that don't have MJK going out after coming home intoxicated and singing wildly enough to annoy neighbours. Anyone who thinks she went out again after such a state must assign some super human properties to the girl for doing that. If your drunk by midnight, at home, a few feet from your bed if not in it, then its lights out. The only person who is likely to have gone out and back again checking for possible witnesses is Blotchy who matches Lewis description of the man on Dorset street. He could go back into Mary's room anytime he wanted with the window trick.

Also are we to believe MJK an alcoholic didn't drink from the beer container he brought?

She was plastered and going nowhere. JtR victimology to a T.

[RockySullivan]

Hi LC, indeed! I personally want to say I'd like to believe Maxwell that she saw Kelly that morning. But it's hard for me to believe it wasn't Kelly screaming murder. If Kelly was at the Britannia the people drinking there, bartender etc would've seen her and I can't see why they wouldn't come forward. A conundrum indeed

[lynn cates]

ambiguous

Hello Rocky.

"Of course it would be so stupid to think the woman screaming murder was the murdered woman!"

Not stupid at all--any more than thinking it was incidental.

Problem is--as with so much of the "evidence" in these murders--it is ambiguous.

Cheers.
LC

[RockySullivan]

Well if that's the criteria you apply how do you know that the cries weren't common and she actually heard nothing that night.

Read some history such cries were common.

So Mary's neighbor here's someone Screaming MURDER two or three times...and in the morning Kelly is found butchered. Of course it would be so stupid to think the woman screaming murder was the murdered woman!

[GUT]

How do you know elizabeth prater isn't just claiming that to justify her not going to help a woman screaming murder multiple times?

Well if that's the criteria you apply how do you know that the cries weren't common and she actually heard nothing that night.

Read some history such cries were common.

[RockySullivan]

I have no idea why, what I know is that her evidence was that such cries were frequent, what part of that don't you get, this was not a one off t was a "FREQUENT" occurrence for such cries to be heard, so were all of these occurrences from Kelly's room???

How do you know elizabeth prater isn't just claiming that to justify her not going to help a woman screaming murder multiple times?

[GUT]

Why would someone be outside screaming "murder murder!" Twice possibly 3 times at 4 am?

I have no idea why, what I know is that her evidence was that such cries were frequent, what part of that don't you get, this was not a one off t was a "FREQUENT" occurrence for such cries to be heard, so were all of these occurrences from Kelly's room???

[Robert]

Mary didn't have to open anything. Anyone can open that door by watching her window trick.

You don't even need a window trick. Just push :

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/6293.html

[RockySullivan]

Of course, except there were no "screams of murder murder murder" rather there was a cry of oh murder, such cries being heard frequently. But lets not let mere facts get in the way of a good theory.

I'm curious about the different between oh murder & screaming murder two or three times. If you scream murder more than once your in likely danger unless your crying wolf, don't you agree? The fact that she says two or three times rules out the possibility that she's describing a friendly "oh murder". However let's say for instance the screams came from outside and not from
Kelly. Why would someone be outside screaming "murder murder!" Twice possibly 3 times at 4 am? If maxwell's sighting was legit, than who knows maybe some cook was outside screaming murder murder for fun and it just so happened to be right outside from where a murder takes place. Seems like a stretch to me. If Kelly wasn't killed until the late morning, which I think is possible, who was the man maxwell saw her with? A market porter...possibly a spitalfields market porter?
"
eBetween 3.30 and 4.00am, she was awoken by her kitten 'Diddles' walking across her neck and at that moment heard screams of murder, about two or three times, in a female voice. She did not take much notice as such cries were frequent."


On returning, Maxwell saw Kelly again at about 8.45-9.00am outside the Britannia talking to a man. He was about 30 years of age, stout of build, about 5ft 5ins tall and dressed like a market porter. As she was quite a distance away, she did not believe she would recognise him again. Kelly was wearing a dark dress, velvet body and a maroon shawl.[1]

[Batman]

Mary didn't have to open anything. Anyone can open that door by watching her window trick.

[GUT]

She did hear it! She heard screams of murder murder murder what more do you expect?

Of course, except there were no "screams of murder murder murder" rather there was a cry of oh murder, such cries being heard frequently. But lets not let mere facts get in the way of a good theory.

[RockySullivan]

And Mrs Prater {now wide awake} hears nothing?

She did hear it! She heard screams of murder murder murder what more do you expect?

[elleryqueen74]

So the prelude to the murder indicates...known man to Mary, murder after 3:45 when people fell asleep again, and Mary in bed on her right side, facing the wall, when attacked. Anyone who doesn't see a personal relationship between killer and victim should look again[/I]".

People often illogically base their opinions on some matters using their "gut"...I suggest the brain is a much better tool and well suited for the task.

Cheers

Saying because she answered the door to someone and they didn't force their way in proves she knew her killer is a as ridiculous as saying that because a man taps a woman on the shoulder and says something to her and they both laugh that that somehow proves they know each other.

Sorry but really I can't see how someone unknown to her couldn't have knocked on her door.

[GUT]

Could the Ripper have attacked straight away from the doorway? It doesnt necessarily follow that he knows Kelly if she opens the door and he's brandishing a knife, she screams and he attacks, forcing her onto the bed.

And Mrs Prater {now wide awake} hears nothing?

[RockySullivan]

And then go and lay on the bed waiting quietly to be ripped?

Could the Ripper have attacked straight away from the doorway? It doesnt necessarily follow that he knows Kelly if she opens the door and he's brandishing a knife, she screams and he attacks, forcing her onto the bed.