Did Mary know her killer?

[Rosella]

Prostitutes are murdered by males in greater numbers than in any other profession so I suppose some clients do enjoy those fantasies. I can't imagine the Ripper's victims doing this, however, especially as he didn't seem to give them a chance to call out anything, (with the possible exception of Mary.)

[jason_c]

I have for a long time suspected Kelly's "arrears" included the cost of having the window(s) fixed. The weeks she didn't pay rent had been relatively few. A few weeks missed rent payments and a broken window can suddenly mount up. It's an amount McCarthy would have deliberated upon. Was it better to chuck Kelly out, or hope she come up with the goods by whatever means?

[GUT]

I have for a long time suspected Kelly's "arrears" included the cost of having the window(s) fixed. The weeks she didn't pay rent had been relatively few. A few weeks missed rent payments and a broken window can suddenly mount up. It's an amount McCarthy would have deliberated upon. Was it better to chuck Kelly out, or hope she come up with the goods by whatever means?

At the inquest he said as much "you get the arrears as best you can".

[jason_c]

At the inquest he said as much "you get the arrears as best you can".

I think I remembered that quote from McCarthy which probably influenced my own choice of words. McCarthy wasn't an idiot. He would have dealt with all sorts of dubious tenants. He was in a far better position than any of us in knowing how best to get money off a tenant, or which tenants to be tough with and which ones he could afford to give more leeway to. A pretty faced young woman may have had more moneymaking ability than an "old hag".

[Abby Normal]

Ive wondered if McCarthy was "getting his arrears best you can" by taking sexual favors from Mary in place of cash.

It may be another reason she didn't seem too concerned about the rent.

[Michael W Richards]

I have to admit that the number of posters who seem content to imagine Mary selling herself that last night, or talking clients into her room is entertaining. It seems a lack of evidence or previous histories mean nothing to those whose do so.

That being said, if you would like to imagine a solution for the problems faced in this thread or any other thread here, youll have to start saving imagination and spending some plain, common sense.

There is not one witness who says Mary ever took clients to her room in Millers court, even Barnett say he objected to her "working the streets"...there is not one witness who said Mary was concerned at all about arrears, and we have evidence she had done the same thing prior to this residence, and there is not one witness who claimed to be the voice calling out around 3:45, the only person who would be unable to claim it was the deceased.

All anyone has here is her bringing Blotchy home and singing off and on for over an hour, when the singing stops and the lights go out. Any supposition about what happened next is just that.

Cheers

[Batman]

You seem to be living in a world where in 1888 people were not FORCED by social and environmental conditions to resort to prostitution in Whitechapel, let alone Dorset St.!

There was a widespread expansion of prostitution in that area at that time and you want people to believe she was just up to Gin Rummy with a man with a pale of ale only a few hours before she was murdered?

This isn't Beverly Hills 90210.

[lynn cates]

folk music

Hello Batman.

"There was a widespread expansion of prostitution in that area at that time and you want people to believe she was just up to Gin Rummy with a man with a pale of ale only a few hours before she was murdered?"

Gin rummy? Heavens no. She was regaling him with Irish folk music a good long time.

Cheers.
LC

[Penhalion]

Is THAT what they were calling it back then?

[The Good Michael]

I have to admit that the number of posters who seem content to imagine Mary selling herself that last night, or talking clients into her room is entertaining. It seems a lack of evidence or previous histories mean nothing to those whose do so.

Yes. You are the only one who doesn't believe this. I hate that the rest of us are so stupid. We just figure...prostitutes sometimes...prostitute? We may all be wrong.

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Yes. You are the only one who doesn't believe this. I hate that the rest of us are so stupid. We just figure...prostitutes sometimes...prostitute? We may all be wrong.

Mike

Yeah, I must admit Im a bit of a stickler when people post comment after comment based on assumptions that have no foundation in any evidence anywhere . In this instance, the night of Nov 8th, 1888, there is no evidence Mary was soliciting, and since she lived with a man until the end of October who objected to her selling herself and who was supporting her financially, there is no evidence that while Barnett lived there Mary solicited regularly.

Her arrears is some evidence of that statement...(arrears that some continue to question despite the landlords statement that they existed)...and there is no evidence anywhere that shows us Mary started bringing clients into a room leased under her name after Barnett left.

Forgive me for requiring some evidence of these spurious suppositions.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Yes. You are the only one who doesn't believe this. I hate that the rest of us are so stupid. We just figure...prostitutes sometimes...prostitute? We may all be wrong.

Mike

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

Nice when people make up their minds based on what is known rather than what is assumed.

Cheers

[RockySullivan]

Do the witnesses Sightings of Astrakhan & blotchy indicate Mary was working? I think the circumstances with McCarthy indicate he had an arrangement with Kelly and other prostitutes like Prater.

[Spider]

Hi GM
Yes of course mary was a (some time)prostitute, but I have serious doubts also that she was actively solicitating that night. Other than Hutchs dubious claim, Mary was seen with one man that night-Blotchy. And the circumstances seem to point to her not necessarily in a prostitution relationship with him.

Shes acting like she knows him fairly well, comfortable enough to bring him back to her room, sing, make a fire, have a few drinks, hang out with him for a relatively long time. Not the behavior of a woman engaging in prostitution. And there is no evidence that she used her residence for prostitution-more like it was her safe haven; living there with Barnett, allowing friends to crash etc.

If she was solicitating that night, however, I would tend to think that Blotchy was someone she knew before, probably from being out in the pubs. This is at the height of the ripper scare, we have evidence that she was wary of this, so not sure if she would be bringing total strangers back.

I dismiss she was out serial prostituting that night, going after one man after another, with all the circs we know surrounding that night.

I give it 50/50 she was prostituting herself to Blotchy and if she was, then definitely not prostituting herself later. She had food and beer in her belly, a roof over her head, and money in her pocket for McCarthy in the morning.

Sounds like a very reasonable scenario ;-)