Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi, Bridewell,
It is a good find but is not conclusive.
The fair Emma is interesting...Emma Kelly? Emma Davies, Emma Lawrence? Was Kelly her married name?
I don't think she was named after Emma Hamilton. That is conjecture. She died decades before MJK was born.
It is odd. There must be some record of her somewhere.
Her landlady was quite definite she was Welsh which adds to the mystery.

Who was Mary Jane Kelly?

Amanda

[Natasha]

On another MJK thread (Hair Colour) Mr Barnett made reference to the 'Fair Emma' nickname, saying:-



If it was, would that be because of a resemblance or something else in her background?

In the 1871 census there is a Kelly family living at 25, Muir Street, Hamilton (which is 16 miles from the Limerigg I keep banging on about!).

Michael KELLY (35) Coal Miner
Catherine KELLY (33)
Michael KELLY (13)
James KELLY (12)
Hugh KELLY (10)
John KELLY (8)
Mary KELLY (7)
Patrick KELLY (5)
Bernard KELLY (3)
Frances KELLY (1)

The same family appears in the 1881 census at 5, Barrack Street, Hamilton with Frances missing (perhaps died in infancy?), with Thomas (8) & Peter (5) added.

In 1891 (at 1, Watson Street, Hamilton) Catherine is missing (perhaps deceased), as are Michael & James who have presumably left home. Also missing is Mary (possibly married?), but added is Helen (7).

In 1901 there is no Helen but there is a 16-year-old Ellen (granddaughter to the Head of the Household) who seems likely to be one and the same.

Hi Bridewell

The fact that there are 6 brothers and 1 sister, is possibly a very good semblance to Kelly's story. Kelly also said, of course according to Barnett, that her sister was very fond of her, I would take that to mean she looked up to her older sister Mary.

I know people will say "yeah, but there are alot of Kelly familys etc" but I think this family are good candidates.

Possibly a significant find. Good find!

[Bridewell]

On another MJK thread (Hair Colour) Mr Barnett made reference to the 'Fair Emma' nickname, saying:-

Perhaps Fair Emma was a reference to Emma Hamilton.

If it was, would that be because of a resemblance or something else in her background?

In the 1871 census there is a Kelly family living at 25, Muir Street, Hamilton (which is 16 miles from the Limerigg I keep banging on about!).

Michael KELLY (35) Coal Miner
Catherine KELLY (33)
Michael KELLY (13)
James KELLY (12)
Hugh KELLY (10)
John KELLY (8)
Mary KELLY (7)
Patrick KELLY (5)
Bernard KELLY (3)
Frances KELLY (1)

The same family appears in the 1881 census at 5, Barrack Street, Hamilton with Frances missing (perhaps died in infancy?), with Thomas (8) & Peter (5) added.

In 1891 (at 1, Watson Street, Hamilton) Catherine is missing (perhaps deceased), as are Michael & James who have presumably left home. Also missing is Mary (possibly married?), but added is Helen (7).

In 1901 there is no Helen but there is a 16-year-old Ellen (granddaughter to the Head of the Household) who seems likely to be one and the same.

[Bridewell]

Hi Amanda,

It is strange that all the surnames are correct except for that one. I have read the Lawrence reference somewhere else, so maybe there is a common source. I feel pretty sure that Chris Scott will have researched the Lawrence angle also - presumably without success.

[Amanda Sumner]

Mrs Lawrence

Just to throw a spanner in the works....
I have never believed "Kelly" was her real name. It certainly explains why she has been difficult to find, and no one has satisfactorily found any results that positively identifies her.

Recently I came across this news article dated 1889 that possibly might shed light on the mystery. It could be a simple case of getting the name wrong but all the other victims names are correct. ( Sorry, they got Tabram wrong too ) Where did Lawrence come from? Might be worth looking into....

What does anyone else think? I find it very odd.

http://clickamericana.com/topics/notable-people/jack-the-ripper-once-more-plies-his-knife-1889

[Bridewell]

Apologies. The date in the last post should read 4th February 1883.

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Natasha!

I've been looking at birth records and found the following:-

Mary Ann Ellen KELLY, child of John KELLY (Engineer) and Mary Ann KELLY.

There are numerous Mary Kellys obviously, but this caught my eye because the record is of a baptism at Christchurch Spitalfields on 4th February 1888 and the address of the family is 4, Little Paternoster Row which was a narrow passage running between Dorset Street and Brushfield Street (along which Annie Chapman walked on the last night of her life).

Has anyone come across a Mary Kelly living on Little Paternoster Row before?

[Natasha]

I've been doing a little more research around my thought that Barnett might have misunderstood Limerigg as Limerick (Limerigg being a small village about 20 miles east of Glasgow). Mary Kelly herself is the proverbial needle in a haystack, as everyone knows, so I looked for a John Kelly with a Scottish military connection. Still nothing connected to the Scots Guards, but I did find a John Kelly, born June 1863 who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusiliers on 10th December 1885:-

On the 1881 census the guy I think is him was living at 28, Grace Street, Glasgow Barony with:

John Kelly (42) Engine Keeper (looks like this was in an iron works)
Susan Kelly (41)
William Kelly (21) Coppersmith
John Kelly (17) Iron Turner
Jane Kelly (14) Machinist
Thomas Kelly (11)
Samuel Kelly (8)
Jane Scott (60) (Mother-in-Law to Head of Household).

No mention of a Mary however. I then checked the birth records and found that a John Kelly and a Susan Scott registered the birth of a Mary Kelly who was born on 5th February 1862. This girl isn't listed with the family in the 1871 census but, as the Kelly and Scott surnames both match, I am pretty sure this is the same couple. I'm tempted to conclude that this Mary Kelly died young but unfortunately the Scottish death records don't seem to be accessible through Ancestry for some reason. I did find a Mary Kelly who was living with her brother, Thomas (Foundry Worker), in the same area (Glasgow Barony), but this Mary is a Warehouse Girl aged 13. I suppose it's just conceivable that a brother might lie about his sister's age in order to get her out and earning but could a 9-year-old pass for 13? I'd like to pursue this (in preference to that infernal shawl!). Does anyone have access to the Scottish death records before I commit too much time to it?

Hi Bridewell

I'm starting to think the mining accident in Scotland I discovered may be significant. Thanks for investigating this further.

I see you are looking for more info and are not having any luck with Ancestry. The following link may be helpful:

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

[Bridewell]

Thanks, GUT. I'll keep digging! There's a huge number of Scottish men named John Kelly though. I've found two so far who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusiliers.

[Bridewell]

G'day Bridewell

One of the best matches I've yet to see.

Born in '62 so 26 in '88 when MJK was said to be 25.

In 71 could she have been staying with other family ie Grand parents Uncle etc?

I don't currently have access to death records for Scotland but know from experience that sometimes people are just missing off them anyway, especially when they die very young.

Thanks, GUT. I'll keep digging!

[GUT]

I've been doing a little more research around my thought that Barnett might have misunderstood Limerigg as Limerick (Limerigg being a small village about 20 miles east of Glasgow). Mary Kelly herself is the proverbial needle in a haystack, as everyone knows, so I looked for a John Kelly with a Scottish military connection. Still nothing connected to the Scots Guards, but I did find a John Kelly, born June 1863 who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusiliers on 10th December 1885:-

On the 1881 census the guy I think is him was living at 28, Grace Street, Glasgow Barony with:

John Kelly (42) Engine Keeper (looks like this was in an iron works)
Susan Kelly (41)
William Kelly (21) Coppersmith
John Kelly (17) Iron Turner
Jane Kelly (14) Machinist
Thomas Kelly (11)
Samuel Kelly (8)
Jane Scott (60) (Mother-in-Law to Head of Household).

No mention of a Mary however. I then checked the birth records and found that a John Kelly and a Susan Scott registered the birth of a Mary Kelly who was born on 5th February 1862. This girl isn't listed with the family in the 1871 census but, as the Kelly and Scott surnames both match, I am pretty sure this is the same couple. I'm tempted to conclude that this Mary Kelly died young but unfortunately the Scottish death records don't seem to be accessible through Ancestry for some reason. I did find a Mary Kelly who was living with her brother, Thomas (Foundry Worker), in the same area (Glasgow Barony), but this Mary is a Warehouse Girl aged 13. I suppose it's just conceivable that a brother might lie about his sister's age in order to get her out and earning but could a 9-year-old pass for 13? I'd like to pursue this (in preference to that infernal shawl!). Does anyone have access to the Scottish death records before I commit too much time to it?

G'day Bridewell

One of the best matches I've yet to see.

Born in '62 so 26 in '88 when MJK was said to be 25.

In 71 could she have been staying with other family ie Grand parents Uncle etc?

I don't currently have access to death records for Scotland but know from experience that sometimes people are just missing off them anyway, especially when they die very young.

[Bridewell]

I've been doing a little more research around my thought that Barnett might have misunderstood Limerigg as Limerick (Limerigg being a small village about 20 miles east of Glasgow). Mary Kelly herself is the proverbial needle in a haystack, as everyone knows, so I looked for a John Kelly with a Scottish military connection. Still nothing connected to the Scots Guards, but I did find a John Kelly, born June 1863 who enlisted in the Royal Scots Fusiliers on 10th December 1885:-

On the 1881 census the guy I think is him was living at 28, Grace Street, Glasgow Barony with:

John Kelly (42) Engine Keeper (looks like this was in an iron works)
Susan Kelly (41)
William Kelly (21) Coppersmith
John Kelly (17) Iron Turner
Jane Kelly (14) Machinist
Thomas Kelly (11)
Samuel Kelly (8)
Jane Scott (60) (Mother-in-Law to Head of Household).

No mention of a Mary however. I then checked the birth records and found that a John Kelly and a Susan Scott registered the birth of a Mary Kelly who was born on 5th February 1862. This girl isn't listed with the family in the 1871 census but, as the Kelly and Scott surnames both match, I am pretty sure this is the same couple. I'm tempted to conclude that this Mary Kelly died young but unfortunately the Scottish death records don't seem to be accessible through Ancestry for some reason. I did find a Mary Kelly who was living with her brother, Thomas (Foundry Worker), in the same area (Glasgow Barony), but this Mary is a Warehouse Girl aged 13. I suppose it's just conceivable that a brother might lie about his sister's age in order to get her out and earning but could a 9-year-old pass for 13? I'd like to pursue this (in preference to that infernal shawl!). Does anyone have access to the Scottish death records before I commit too much time to it?

[Sam Flynn]

There may have been some damage to her bones

Almost certainly, Lynn.

[Prosector]

I understand from forensic pathologists that I have spoken to that the best source of DNA from remains that have been buried for a long time and may be in poor condition (or even totally destroyed) is likely to be a tooth, particularly a substantial one like a molar. But the main problem would be tracing the descendants of the other burials and getting their permissions.

Prosector

[GUT]

G'day Prosector

If there were 50 bodies in the dig you would also have to choose a bone [say the skull] and test each and every one until you have a match.

The problem as I see it is that I believe that skulls are not great for DNA testing because of so little marrow, but if you tested any other bone, ie a thigh, which might be better for DNA testing it wouldn't prove a lot would it?

Other than that the person you have in mind was related to someone in the dig and unless we knew the details of each person exhumed it doesn't solve a lot it seems.