Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[John Wheat]

It would sure make a good book -- or screen play.
curious

To Curious

I agree it would make a good book or a screenplay. For the latter it would make a nice change from the usual Jack the Ripper Royal Conspiracy films.

Cheers John

[curious]

I know this is going to sound like a crackpot idea and it probably is and is pure speculation but I wonder what the possibility of Mary Jane Kelly and Mary Jane Bury, Ripper suspect William Henry Bury's sister were one and the same. Mary Jane Kelly is shrouded in mystery and there are no records for Mary Jane Bury after 1871 and although Mary Jane Kelly claimed to be 25 in 1888 and Mary Jane Bury would be 31. Many people claim to be younger than they actually are and many 31 year olds could pass for 25.

Hi, John,
Now that's an interesting idea . . . and would explain the overkill on MJK.

Combine that with the fact that Eddowes might have been a cousin (the Evans line) and that the two families lived close to each other in Wolverhampton . . .

Both women would have known far more about William Henry Bury's background than he could allow . . . .

It would sure make a good book -- or screen play.

curious

[lynn cates]

Has anybody here seen Kelly?

Hello John. That's a thought.

Of course, the investigation must regard BOTH correct spelling and location. So I'd suggest:

1. K-e-double l-y.

2. The Isle of Man.

Cheers.
LC

[John Wheat]

Mary Jane Bury

I know this is going to sound like a crackpot idea and it probably is and is pure speculation but I wonder what the possibility of Mary Jane Kelly and Mary Jane Bury, Ripper suspect William Henry Bury's sister were one and the same. Mary Jane Kelly is shrouded in mystery and there are no records for Mary Jane Bury after 1871 and although Mary Jane Kelly claimed to be 25 in 1888 and Mary Jane Bury would be 31. Many people claim to be younger than they actually are and many 31 year olds could pass for 25.

[sdreid]

Well, the 125th anniversary of Mary Kelly's murder is this coming Saturday.

[Mayerling]

Well while it is gratifying to see my suggestion got some attention, I remind you that I had my doubts too about whether it could be done. Two decades ago President Zachary Taylor's corpse was disinterred when a relative suggested he'd been poisoned in 1850 during a major political crisis (that led to the "Compromise of 1850"). Taylor was opposed to the compromise plan of Henry Clay, but was threatening to personally lead an army into any states that threatened secession. His Vice President (Millard Fillmore) was willing (if President) to sign any compromise legislation to avoid Civil War. Taylor died suddenly of an illness (probably intestinal) after drinking iced mild and eating cherries on a hot July day. Hence the suspicion of poisoning. But the modern autopsy found no proof or disproof of poisoning (supposedly arsenic).

I believe the two best known disinterment cases were that of Mrs. Armstrong in 1922 (which led to her husband Major Armstrong's conviction for her murder), and the weird Druce - Portland Case of 1908, where a wealthy merchant named Thomas Druce was dug up to prove he was not a former Duke of Portland.

In all those cases the government interest was heavy and family permission was granted in Druce - Portland and the Taylor matters.

Jeff

[Robert]

I would imagine that the only opportunity would come if the remains had to be reburied at a lower level, or something like that. There is a grave shortage (if you'll forgive the expression) of burial space and there has been talk that certain cemeteries might re-use graves. If Leytonstone ends up being one of them, then there might be an opportunity.

[Bridewell]

Thanks, Sally. I can't imagine that a disinterment will ever be allowed but who knows? The irony is that there must be a family somewhere whose great-great aunt Mary (or whatever) disappeared in the 1880's and was never heard from again. I think our best hope is that someone will one day have a 'Eureka' moment and put his or her ancestor's name into the frame.

[Sally]

Hi Jeff.

The most prohibitive factor must be the cost.
As her relatives are untraceable then I'm not sure who's signature is required to grant permission.

If you could get a University involved it would legitimize the process. I say this because I can imagine the onslaught of negative comments about those 'nutcase' Ripperologists are now desecrating a grave, etc.

No UK University will get involved with that Jon. I take your point entirely, but it would never happen. If Kelly was to be disinterred, the justification would have to be good enough.

Here's a link to the Ministry of Justice website that explains how to go about obtaining permission to disinter:

http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/burials-and-coroners/exhuming-human-remains-faq.pdf

Just in case anybody's interested.

[Disco Stu]

Tale of two cities

There's the difference between Leicester and London; we don't mind digging up dead celebrities.

Has anyone looked on Scotlandspeople yet?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jeff.

The most prohibitive factor must be the cost.
As her relatives are untraceable then I'm not sure who's signature is required to grant permission.

If you could get a University involved it would legitimize the process. I say this because I can imagine the onslaught of negative comments about those 'nutcase' Ripperologists are now desecrating a grave, etc.

[Mayerling]

I'm going to give this idea a shot, although it may seem quite ghoulish (which shames me - considering what poor Mary had to go through in the early morning hours of Nov. 9, 1888). Recently we saw a well publicized sample of what we have in mind.

When the remains of King Richard III were found in the car park, one of the skeletal remains was Richard's skull. This is fortunate Besides the fact that his distant collateral descendant's DNA could be compared to his to prove the remains' identity, they took the skull and "reconstructed" it in a forensic lab using computer imaging (they used to do this with tape and other items to physical the skull - they did that with the skull of Ivan the Terrible in the 1970s. Mary's skull is still in her grave - it may not be intact anymore but we could only tell if somebody would check it. Possibly a computerized reconstruction of her skull might be done so that we can see what she looked like (not like the insanely carved up murder victim her two police photos show). I would think it would be worth a shot - if the authorities would grant such a request. But I honestly don't know if they would.

Jeff

[Bridewell]

I'm glad you said opinion. My own ancestors (well, some of them) were Irish Catholics coming in to Scotland and they got along just fine. Around the end of the 19th century there were lots of immigrants flooding into Scotland from all parts of Europe, including Catholics and Jews. I won't say there was no intolerance, but I doubt it compared to what they were leaving behind.

Good post, Stu.

[Bridewell]

Irish Families In Scotland

Why do you say this? Aside from Barra, I don't think the Scots would have been very welcoming to the Irish. The hatred of Catholics brought on by the insanity of Calvinism, made them the Irish targets.

The family in Hamilton is an Irish one with the Kelly surname. Were they welcome? Who knows? The fact remains that they were there.

[Cogidubnus]

There is a huge (originally Irish) RC presence in Glasgow at least...hence the "Old Firm" competition between Rangers and Celtic Football Clubs...

The calvinistic wee frees actually divided the protestant faith north of the border and thus in many ways weakened it...

All the best

Dave