Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

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  • Disco Stu
    replied
    Catholics in Scotland

    Originally posted by The Good Michael View Post
    Why do you say this? Aside from Barra, I don't think the Scots would have been very welcoming to the Irish. The hatred of Catholics brought on by the insanity of Calvinism, made them the Irish targets. The Welsh would have been far easier to get on with in my opinion.

    Mike
    I'm glad you said opinion. My own ancestors (well, some of them) were Irish Catholics coming in to Scotland and they got along just fine. Around the end of the 19th century there were lots of immigrants flooding into Scotland from all parts of Europe, including Catholics and Jews. I won't say there was no intolerance, but I doubt it compared to what they were leaving behind.

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    third man

    Hello Stephen. Thanks.

    Don't know the name off hand. That's why I said "in some stories."

    Cheers.
    LC

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  • The Good Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by DirectorDave View Post
    I've always wondered about a Scottish connection with Mary...the West of Scotland seems a far more likely destination for an Irish family than Wales.
    Why do you say this? Aside from Barra, I don't think the Scots would have been very welcoming to the Irish. The hatred of Catholics brought on by the insanity of Calvinism, made them the Irish targets. The Welsh would have been far easier to get on with in my opinion.

    Mike

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  • Stephen Thomas
    replied
    Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
    Twelve angry men? Is that the one where there was a divergent point of view; yet, he kept beating the drum until others saw their intellectual faux pas?
    Well you could put it that that way, Lynn but I reckon that the non academic film fan would say the witness was blind as a bat. Like Mrs Maxwell may have been.

    Who is your third next morning witness?

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  • Observer
    replied
    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
    Chris has probably done more research on MJK than anyone, but Debra Arif, with some assistance from others (myself included), has done quite a lot of research into Kellys in the Scots Guards:

    http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6544
    Considering the popularity of researching family trees in this country Bridewell, some one may well have stumbled on the Mary Kelly in question already. The answer may lie in some insignificant little jotter somewhere.

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    connections

    Hello CD.

    "is there some practical reason for these inquiries as in giving us possible clues as to who might have killed her?"

    Certainly. It helps one see her connections to others.

    Cheers.
    LC

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  • Bridewell
    replied
    Scots Guards

    Chris Scott and others have said that the best chance to trace her is probably the brother in the Scots Guards- has anyone had luck with that?
    Chris has probably done more research on MJK than anyone, but Debra Arif, with some assistance from others (myself included), has done quite a lot of research into Kellys in the Scots Guards:

    Leave a comment:


  • C. F. Leon
    replied
    Originally posted by c.d. View Post
    I have to say that I don't quite understand this preoccupation with Mary's past. I don't mean for this to sound smart ass but is there some practical reason for these inquiries as in giving us possible clues as to who might have killed her?

    c.d.

    P.S. Again, I don't mean to offend with this question.
    Why does identifying the killer/-s have to be the ONLY concern about the case?

    To try to return to the original question: Kelly & whatever family she had are probably on the census SOMEWHERE- the most likely answer is that "Mary Kelly", like "Marie Jeanette" was NOT her birth name. Chris Scott and others have said that the best chance to trace her is probably the brother in the Scots Guards- has anyone had luck with that?

    Chris: just how good were the census at the time (1861-91) and how much survives to the current date? Is there much material lost? Also, recently an idea occured to me- perhaps Barnett misremembered or heard wrong and maybe Davies/Davis was Mary's husband's GIVEN name and we should look for a "Davis (or even David) Kelly"?

    Another possibility might be, if the Paris story was true, looking for her in French records. How good was the French census at the time and when were they? Would they have included brothel occupants?

    I also wonder about the story about Mary hearing that her father was looking for her and 'hiding'. Could it be that when she was told "Mary, your father was by the other day looking for you", she thought "What? Daddy's been dead x years" and getting a description of 'Daddy': "oh, God, it's my stalker- Morganwhatever" and that's why she hid? Speculation, of course, and probably completely unrelated to her murder, but I'm surprised no one has jumped on it for the royal conspiracy or whatever.
    Last edited by C. F. Leon; 09-11-2013, 04:54 PM.

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  • c.d.
    replied
    I have to say that I don't quite understand this preoccupation with Mary's past. I don't mean for this to sound smart ass but is there some practical reason for these inquiries as in giving us possible clues as to who might have killed her?

    c.d.

    P.S. Again, I don't mean to offend with this question.

    Leave a comment:


  • lynn cates
    replied
    beating the drum

    Hello Stephen. Thanks.

    Twelve angry men? Is that the one where there was a divergent point of view; yet, he kept beating the drum until others saw their intellectual faux pas?

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:


  • Stephen Thomas
    replied
    Originally posted by pinkmoon View Post
    Tony Williams found the Kelly family living in Wales in his book "uncle jack "
    Dear oh dear, pinkmoon.

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  • pinkmoon
    replied
    uncle jack

    Tony Williams found the Kelly family living in Wales in his book "uncle jack "

    Leave a comment:


  • Stephen Thomas
    replied
    Originally posted by lynn cates View Post

    Agree about Hitchcock.

    There were some stories that had a third witness claiming "MJK" was alive that morning.

    Hello Lynn

    Did you ever see Twelve Angry Men? And also The Third Man?

    Leave a comment:


  • DirectorDave
    replied
    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
    I've been doing a bit of checking in the Scotland censuses as those of Wales and England have been so well covered elsewhere. There is a Mary Kelly with 8 brothers and 1 sister. She's only 16 in the 1881 census but her father's name is John as is that of one of her brothers. She wasn't born in Ireland, but her parents and eldest brother were. Her own birthplace is shown as 'Hamilton', so nowhere near Limerick, but only 15.8 miles from the village of Limerigg.

    Brothers:

    Michael born c.1858
    Jas (James?) born c.1860
    Hugh born c.1861
    John born c.1862
    Pat born c.1867
    Bernard born c.1868
    Thos (Thomas) born c.1873
    Peter born c.1876.

    The sister (Frances) appears as a 1 year old in the 1871 census only. The same family appears in 1891 but without Mary. The most likely explanation is that she had married in the interim but it's not the only possibility.
    I've always wondered about a Scottish connection with Mary...the West of Scotland seems a far more likely destination for an Irish family than Wales.

    Also why would an Irish/Welsh brother be in the Scots guards?

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  • lynn cates
    replied
    third witness

    Hello Richard. Thanks.

    Agree about Hitchcock.

    There were some stories that had a third witness claiming "MJK" was alive that morning.

    Cheers.
    LC

    Leave a comment:

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