Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[Natasha]

Thank you Natasha, that is good news. I am a member so I will have a look tomorrow. I do feel that if we found out more about her it might help to discover her murderer. Certainly give us a better understanding of her circumstances.

Unlikely, of course, but worth a shot...

Amanda

Kelly's identity, I feel, has been deliberately obscured or rather hidden by authorities. I say this because whilst investigating possible ideas, I did find it increasingly difficult to get any details. For instance, when looking for infirmary records in some parts of Wales, the files had been lost/destroyed etc, that I feel is a little bit strange. There have been other times when investigating Kelly, I came across the dreaded label 'files haven't survived'. I definitely think Kelly's identity is still worth investigating. I think there are other ideas that haven't been explored yet.

I definitely think Philips PM could tell us alot also. Bond's report said her hand was clenched. I think she may have had something of the killers in her hand. There would, I think, be alot more evidence in Millers Court that night.

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Amanda

I think it would be worth investigating. I wonder where it came from also. I guess someone else had done their own research and produced the name on the link you posted.

You said you haven't got access to the records. I take it you don't have a subscription to ancestry. Good news they have a free access weekend starting now, until 23.59pm on the 21th Sep 2014. You might have to sign up to ancestry, but you don't need any card details etc

Thank you Natasha, that is good news. I am a member so I will have a look tomorrow. I do feel that if we found out more about her it might help to discover her murderer. Certainly give us a better understanding of her circumstances.

Unlikely, of course, but worth a shot...

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Does Jeanette have to have anything to do with France ? Aren't names like Jeanette or Bernadette names that Irish Catholic girls would be given at birth or confirmation?

MrB

[Natasha]

I don't think she called herself Jeanette until she got back from France. Certainly her story is a story but I wonder why she lied.
To hide?

What I do find intriguing is this name Lawrence. Apparently it has been mentioned before. I wonder if it's worth pursuing down that line? I'm sure people have already looked. If I had access to the records I would look myself. It's a great shame that those letters she received never materialised...
She is certainly a mystery.

Hi Amanda

I think it would be worth investigating. I wonder where it came from also. I guess someone else had done their own research and produced the name on the link you posted.

You said you haven't got access to the records. I take it you don't have a subscription to ancestry. Good news they have a free access weekend starting now, until 23.59pm on the 21th Sep 2014. You might have to sign up to ancestry, but you don't need any card details etc

[GUT]

I don't think she called herself Jeanette until she got back from France.

Well so we are lead to believe, but what name is on her death certificate?

[Amanda Sumner]

I don't think she called herself Jeanette until she got back from France. Certainly her story is a story but I wonder why she lied.
To hide?

What I do find intriguing is this name Lawrence. Apparently it has been mentioned before. I wonder if it's worth pursuing down that line? I'm sure people have already looked. If I had access to the records I would look myself. It's a great shame that those letters she received never materialised...
She is certainly a mystery.

[GUT]

Hi Gut,

Mainly because the story she told Barnett does not fit with any records. No marriage record, no obvious explosion, no obvious Mr Davies. One would have thought there would have been at least one event in the records, somewhere, but nothing. Some people have searched for years and have got nowhere.

A feasible explanation is that Mary Kelly was not her real name.

I think that is very likely, based on the research into her that has been done so far.

Amanda

Or her name was Marie Jeanette Kelly and the rest of her story was BS to try and gain sympathy.

[Amanda Sumner]

G'day Amanda

Why are you so sure?

Just because we can't find her?

We can't find my Great grandfather either, but as dad knew him, for a short period anyway, we're pretty confident he existed.

Hi Gut,

Mainly because the story she told Barnett does not fit with any records. No marriage record, no obvious explosion, no obvious Mr Davies. One would have thought there would have been at least one event in the records, somewhere, but nothing. Some people have searched for years and have got nowhere.

A feasible explanation is that Mary Kelly was not her real name.

I think that is very likely, based on the research into her that has been done so far.

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Hi Gut,

I had a similar problem with my granddad. Couldn't find him in the records anywhere until I looked on the Old Bailey Online website (he was a bit of a rogue). I found two cases there that exactly matched family lore, and I then discovered, and it has subsequently been confirmed, that I had the wrong date and place of birth. I was looking in St George in the East, where I knew he had met my grandmother. But the OB cases showed he was a Spitalfields boy, and from there it all fell into place. The DOB we were working on was actually his baptism, which took place 3 years after his birth.

Perhaps all we need with MJK is a simple twist of fate that sets us on the right track.

One problem I think we have with her is trying to match every last detail of the hearsay life story that has come down to us via a short term partner and various neighbours and brothel-keepers.

MrB

[GUT]

I think many of them were divorced from a lot of things. A fight for survival on a daily basis can't have been easy. However, I will concede that they may have heard of Lady Hamilton.
I am pretty sure, though, that Mary Jane Kelly was not her real name....

Amanda

G'day Amanda

Why are you so sure?

Just because we can't find her?

We can't find my Great grandfather either, but as dad knew him, for a short period anyway, we're pretty confident he existed.

[MrBarnett]

Forgot to mention that Lady H.was brought up in Wales, worked in a brothel run by a Mrs Kelly and spent some time in France.

MrB

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Amanda,

I agree that your average lodging house dweller probably didn't spend much time in the National Portait Gallery, but they weren't entirely divorced from the national culture. I can't believe that not one of MJK's customers would have heard of Nelson and Lady Hamilton. But perhaps none of them had, and it was just a coincidence that she was given the same nickname as a famous lookalike.

MrB

I think many of them were divorced from a lot of things. A fight for survival on a daily basis can't have been easy. However, I will concede that they may have heard of Lady Hamilton.
I am pretty sure, though, that Mary Jane Kelly was not her real name....

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

Not in the normal sense, no, but were the poor of Eastend London aware of this famous beauty who died decades ago? Were they likely to be visiting the national gallery?

Just a thought

Amanda

Hi Amanda,

I agree that your average lodging house dweller probably didn't spend much time in the National Portait Gallery, but they weren't entirely divorced from the national culture. I can't believe that not one of MJK's customers would have heard of Nelson and Lady Hamilton. But perhaps none of them had, and it was just a coincidence that she was given the same nickname as a famous lookalike.

MrB

[Amanda Sumner]

There was a famous English beauty who was renowned for her abundant auburn hair. In the 1880's, her recently acquired portraits hung in the national gallery, and she was known as fair Emma Hamilton.

The idea that a young woman of similar physical attributes might be called 'fair Emma' doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

MrB

Not in the normal sense, no, but were the poor of Eastend London aware of this famous beauty who died decades ago? Were they likely to be visiting the national gallery?

Just a thought

Amanda

[MrBarnett]

There was a famous English beauty who was renowned for her abundant auburn hair. In the 1880's, her recently acquired portraits hung in the national gallery, and she was known as fair Emma Hamilton.

The idea that a young woman of similar physical attributes might be called 'fair Emma' doesn't seem too much of a stretch.

MrB