Mary Kelly. Where Else Can We Look?

[MayBea]

Hello, Miss Marple,

I guess Mary could still have been born in Limerick but the odds are very low that she was born there in the mid 1860s.

The Irish-born populations stats suggest the timeline of her family's immigration is probably sometime prior to 1861, with declining and then falling immigration to England after that time, with immigration to American increasing thereafter.

Irish-born populations of England, Scotland & Wales, 1841-1921

1841 415,725
1851 727,326
1861 805,717
1871 774,310

See more at: http://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.c....xiVIPz7Y.dpuf

[miss marple]

Hi Amanda.
Mary Kelly born 1864 in Castletown Limerick has been known about for years, if you check old MK threads.[ Limerick the key] She had two brothers John born 1866 and Peter born 1868 and sister Alice born 1871
I have never been able to find any other children of this family, or anything else, if you could that would great. Kelly is the 11th commonest name in Limerick.

Other Mary's born in Limerick are
1863 11th May Askeaton Limerick
1864 Kilfannane 27th Nov.
1864 Charlesville 5th Dec
1864 Limerick 25th Feb
1864 St Michael's 31st May
1865 Castletown 16th Aug.

Miss Marple
O

[Amanda Sumner]

Hi Debra,

It was bit of a rhetorical question. My wife's family have an Irish Catholic background and she and her sisters have middle names such as Jeanette, Bernadette and Mary Veronica that reflect this. As far as I know, none of them has ever worked in France.;-)

MrB

The story goes that Mary did not call herself Marie until she returned from France. I believe she liked that name and that was what she called herself. Marie was not a name used much in 19th century England but Mary was so common that I think nearly every family had a Mary or May. Jeanette was not that common at that time either. Jean, Jane, Janet were the English names.
I think she was either born plain Mary Jane or it was not her name at all. However, as Debra says, so many records are not available yet and with no census, almost impossible to find any leads. The Welsh census is available though, but having trawled through the records , cannot find any family that fits her story.

Amanda

[markmorey5]

So, following your logic, any woman who is named Jeanette or Bernadette has probably spent time in a French brothel?

MrB

No, that is quite silly. If a nineteenth century prostitute named Mary Jane said she went to France and they called her 'Marie Jeanette', then that prostitute probably worked in a Maison de Tolérance. If she said she didn't like the life there (in France), the regimented system of being registered and controlled by the police, having regular hygene inspections and not being able to go out may have caused her to not like working in a Maison de Tolérance.

And then there would have been language difficulties for her, because English wasn't a common second language in the nineteenth Century (English only became a common second language after World War Two).

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

It was bit of a rhetorical question. My wife's family have an Irish Catholic background and she and her sisters have middle names such as Jeanette, Bernadette and Mary Veronica that reflect this. As far as I know, none of them has ever worked in France.;-)

MrB

Hi Mr B
It was a very good point you made.

Another point that isn't related to your point but I wanted to make anyway- there are no census records for Ireland until 1901. Tracking someone born in 1860s Ireland is almost impossible.

[MrBarnett]

Hi Debra,

It was bit of a rhetorical question. My wife's family have an Irish Catholic background and she and her sisters have middle names such as Jeanette, Bernadette and Mary Veronica that reflect this. As far as I know, none of them has ever worked in France.;-)

MrB

[Debra A]

Well, I have done some digging , as expected nothing concrete has come up yet.

BUT, I have found a Mary Kelly born in Limerick on the 19th April 1864 to a John Kelly and and Ann McCarthy.
I also found out that John McCarthy named one of his daughters Ann.
Is it too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that Mary Jane Kelly was actually McCarthy's niece? Might explain why he was so lenient with the rent arrears if that was indeed the case...
I could not find Mary, John or Ann McCarthy after that find, but I shall keep looking....

It is possible there were more candidates born before 1864, the year civil registration of births began in Ireland and so don't show in those records. Catholic records have not all been indexed or digitized yet either, Limerick Catholic records included. There is still a possibility that something may turn up in future.

[Debra A]

Does Jeanette have to have anything to do with France ? Aren't names like Jeanette or Bernadette names that Irish Catholic girls would be given at birth or confirmation?

MrB

I agree, Mr B.

[MrBarnett]

Jean is the French equivalent of Jane (just as Marie is equivalent to Mary), and Jeanette means 'little Jean' or little Jane. It was common in French brothels of the time for the working women to adopt the diminuitve of their name, such as Jeanette rather than Jean, and the records of two brothels I saw had more than 3/4s of the women having a diminuitive name ending in 'ette'. This points to Mary Kelly probably having worked in a French brothel, which ties in with her story of going to France. But not as a tourist or the escort of a rich gentleman.

So, following your logic, any woman who is named Jeanette or Bernadette has probably spent time in a French brothel?

MrB

[markmorey5]

Does Jeanette have to have anything to do with France ? Aren't names like Jeanette or Bernadette names that Irish Catholic girls would be given at birth or confirmation?

MrB

Jean is the French equivalent of Jane (just as Marie is equivalent to Mary), and Jeanette means 'little Jean' or little Jane. It was common in French brothels of the time for the working women to adopt the diminuitve of their name, such as Jeanette rather than Jean, and the records of two brothels I saw had more than 3/4s of the women having a diminuitive name ending in 'ette'. This points to Mary Kelly probably having worked in a French brothel, which ties in with her story of going to France. But not as a tourist or the escort of a rich gentleman.

[GUT]

One would have thought so. I've been searching all day but just dead ends. Very frustrating....

Ahh frustration, the world of familial research [or any other type most of the time].

[Amanda Sumner]

Not too much of a stretch, but wouldn't you expect him to have said something to the police if it was his niece and if not him Joe?

One would have thought so. I've been searching all day but just dead ends. Very frustrating....

[GUT]

Well, I have done some digging , as expected nothing concrete has come up yet.

BUT, I have found a Mary Kelly born in Limerick on the 19th April 1864 to a John Kelly and and Ann McCarthy.
I also found out that John McCarthy named one of his daughters Ann.
Is it too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that Mary Jane Kelly was actually McCarthy's niece? Might explain why he was so lenient with the rent arrears if that was indeed the case...
I could not find Mary, John or Ann McCarthy after that find, but I shall keep looking....

Not too much of a stretch, but wouldn't you expect him to have said something to the police if it was his niece and if not him Joe?

[Amanda Sumner]

Well, I have done some digging , as expected nothing concrete has come up yet.

BUT, I have found a Mary Kelly born in Limerick on the 19th April 1864 to a John Kelly and and Ann McCarthy.
I also found out that John McCarthy named one of his daughters Ann.
Is it too much of a stretch of the imagination to suggest that Mary Jane Kelly was actually McCarthy's niece? Might explain why he was so lenient with the rent arrears if that was indeed the case...
I could not find Mary, John or Ann McCarthy after that find, but I shall keep looking....

[Amanda Sumner]

Kelly's identity, I feel, has been deliberately obscured or rather hidden by authorities. I say this because whilst investigating possible ideas, I did find it increasingly difficult to get any details. For instance, when looking for infirmary records in some parts of Wales, the files had been lost/destroyed etc, that I feel is a little bit strange. There have been other times when investigating Kelly, I came across the dreaded label 'files haven't survived'. I definitely think Kelly's identity is still worth investigating. I think there are other ideas that haven't been explored yet.

I definitely think Philips PM could tell us alot also. Bond's report said her hand was clenched. I think she may have had something of the killers in her hand. There would, I think, be alot more evidence in Millers Court that night.

Well, it does seem strange to me that nothing of her story that she told Barnett can be corroborated.
It is odd.
Certainly, by today's standards, Miller's Court was awash with evidence.
I will have a look tomorrow at the records

Mr B,
The name Jeanette originated from France but was used in England, Scotland, Wales and America. It was not as popular in England as Jean, Jane or Janet though. I will look at the records tomorrow using all the name variations, see if I can come up with anything.

Amanda