The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[Abby Normal]

Yeh, maybe, I've lost touch with Bury over the years, but Blotchy certainly didn't.

no one said he did lol

[Wickerman]

Yeh, maybe, I've lost touch with Bury over the years, but Blotchy certainly didn't.

[Abby Normal]

Thats right, the Bethnal Green Botherer/Britannia-man is the only contemporary candidate who displayed potentially threatening behaviour towards women in public.
What more could we want to legitimize a suspect, Kozminski didn't, neither did Druitt, Bury, or anyone else, except perhaps Tumblety, but that was in the U.S.

well bury certainly did

[Wickerman]

Thats right, the Bethnal Green Botherer/Britannia-man is the only contemporary candidate who displayed potentially threatening behaviour towards women in public.
What more could we want to legitimize a suspect, Kozminski didn't, neither did Druitt, Bury, or anyone else, except perhaps Tumblety, but that was in the U.S.

[Abby Normal]

Kelly was last seen outside the Britannia, about 3:00am with that weird character who accosted Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy on the previous Wednesday night. What better suspect could there be?

well ive got a few in mind-notably the men actually seen with kelly that night. but yes the Bethnal Green Botherer has always intrigued me as a suspect-hes around the time accosting and frightening women, trying to get them to go to a secluded place, and very much reminds me of the man whom marshall saw and heard with stride. and carrying a knife sized parcel! Plus as ive mentioned in the past-could he have followed lewis to millers court at distance?
hes on my second tier of viable suspects.

[Wickerman]

Kelly was last seen outside the Britannia, about 3:00am with that weird character who accosted Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy on the previous Wednesday night. What better suspect could there be?

[Abby Normal]

Its back on post #97.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/mary-jane-kelly/760405-the-legend-of-mary-jane-kelly?p=760668#post760668

The relevant part begins:
"Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, who's description tallies with that of the supposed murderer...."

Later in the article he points out that he was not aware the man he saw had been the killer....

"The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off".



No, this point has always been about other witnesses corroborating Hutchinson's story, nothing else.
I never said anyone saw the actual killer.

As you know, I believe the statement by Mrs Kennedy, that she saw Kelly out again about 3:00am.
Plus, I've posted another press account where Scotland Yard had to return to Millers Court to interview the residents, where they then learned Kelly had been seen out in the streets between two & three o'clock.
So, in my view Astrachan cannot have been her killer.

ok thanks got it!

[Wickerman]

thanks wick

i thought bowyer only said he wish he had seen the man, not actually seeing some one correct? can you post the relevent article where he actually said he saw someone the night of marys murder?

Its back on post #97.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/mary-jane-kelly/760405-the-legend-of-mary-jane-kelly?p=760668#post760668

The relevant part begins:
"Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, who's description tallies with that of the supposed murderer...."

Later in the article he points out that he was not aware the man he saw had been the killer....

"The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off".

....so you think bowyer, lewis and of course hutch all saw aman, who in your opinion was not the killer-so who saw the killer(who youve said was the britannia man/bethnal green botherer) in millers court that night? just mrs McCarthys witness?

No, this point has always been about other witnesses corroborating Hutchinson's story, nothing else.
I never said anyone saw the actual killer.

As you know, I believe the statement by Mrs Kennedy, that she saw Kelly out again about 3:00am.
Plus, I've posted another press account where Scotland Yard had to return to Millers Court to interview the residents, where they then learned Kelly had been seen out in the streets between two & three o'clock.
So, in my view Astrachan cannot have been her killer.

[Wickerman]

"I saw such a funny man..."

Hi Jon,

I'm really struggling to imagine what seanr thinks was meant by that, if not the way the man was dressed. It was November, so he wasn't stripped to the waist and sporting budgie smugglers. 90% of what was on view would have been his attire. If he was wearing typical clothing for the time and place, what could have looked so funny about him? Two heads, perhaps? A bleached blond mullet? Clown's shoes?

Love,

Caz
X

Thankyou Caz, yes.
I sometimes shake my head at my own reluctance to state the bleeding obvious.
The man is probably not doing cartwheels down the passage, no dialogue is heard, so he isn't acting "funny", or talking "funny", it can only be his appearance. There was something "funny" about what the customer "saw", therefore - he looked "funny" for this part of town.
Gee,... I wonder who it could be?

Over the years on a number of Hutchinson threads I've learned one consistent point. Posters who are not inclined to just believe Hutchinson tend to make the strangest objections. It's almost become a matter of desperation to conjure up any argument rather than just accept what he said was true.
In these exchanges with seanr I don't recall him saying what his actual view of Hutchinson was, he just began raising objections to comments I wrote.

These four observations by four different witnesses still amount to circumstantial evidence, yet many criminal cases are decided on circumstantial evidence as opposed to hard proof.
And yet still objectors query, "why did Abberline believe Hutchinson?".

[Abby Normal]

It started out as identifying four sources who all claimed to see a man inside Millers Court on the same morning, around the same time. It isn't only Hutchinson's word, Lewis, Bowyer & some unnamed customer.

As you know, I'm not saying they all saw the killer, that is a different issue. Bowyer certainly thought he had seen the killer, but at 3:00am that is unlikely in my view, besides he admitted the man he saw fit the published description of the (assumed) killer.
Blotchy's description was never published, so it wasn't him. The Britannia-man's description was never published as the 'suspect' either.
Only Astrachan had his description published as the latest 'suspect', and as it was about 3:00am, and Bowyer doesn't mention seeing Kelly, the man was Astrachan and, he must have been leaving.

thanks wick

i thought bowyer only said he wish he had seen the man, not actually seeing some one correct? can you post the relevent article where he actually said he saw someone the night of marys murder?

so you think bowyer, lewis and of course hutch all saw aman, who in your opinion was not the killer-so who saw the killer(who youve said was the britannia man/bethnal green botherer) in millers court that night? just mrs McCarthys witness?

[caz]

The issue only came up because modern theorists have taken the position that no-one else saw a strangely dressed man in the court that night.
The four accounts taken together testify that position is not true.

"I saw such a funny man..."

Hi Jon,

I'm really struggling to imagine what seanr thinks was meant by that, if not the way the man was dressed. It was November, so he wasn't stripped to the waist and sporting budgie smugglers. 90% of what was on view would have been his attire. If he was wearing typical clothing for the time and place, what could have looked so funny about him? Two heads, perhaps? A bleached blond mullet? Clown's shoes?

Love,

Caz
X

[mpriestnall]

If they didn't go indoor's, then where did they go?

Kelly was NOT the victim and I assume she didn't witness her stand-in's murder.

Then couldn't Aman place Kelly into, say, a pre-paid cabin at the Victorian Home, while Jack as Blotchy returned to give the stand-in the good news?

[Wickerman]

Thanks Sean

well aman according to wick was not the killler-so 1 and 2 are irrelevent. I thought you guys were talking about all the same man who could have been the killer.
i thought bowyer only said he was in the court that night but didnt see the killer, only saying he wish he had no?
number four is way to dodgy.

It started out as identifying four sources who all claimed to see a man inside Millers Court on the same morning, around the same time. It isn't only Hutchinson's word, Lewis, Bowyer & some unnamed customer.

As you know, I'm not saying they all saw the killer, that is a different issue. Bowyer certainly thought he had seen the killer, but at 3:00am that is unlikely in my view, besides he admitted the man he saw fit the published description of the (assumed) killer.
Blotchy's description was never published, so it wasn't him. The Britannia-man's description was never published as the 'suspect' either.
Only Astrachan had his description published as the latest 'suspect', and as it was about 3:00am, and Bowyer doesn't mention seeing Kelly, the man was Astrachan and, he must have been leaving.

[Wickerman]

So, if I am to follow your line of argument, when Reynold's newspaper reports that Sarah Lewis said the words 'there was no-one in the court', that is accurate reporting of what she said, and the only possible interpretation of her meaning is 'there were two people in the court, a man and a woman. The man was dressed unusually. They went into one of the buildings.'

That is what was reported in the Daily Telegraph (& Reynolds News), yes.
What other conclusion should we arrive at, they simply entered one of the rooms.

[Abby Normal]

Thursday night/ Friday morning. The night of the Mary Kelly murder.

The four people are:

1) George Hutchinson - Astrakhan Man

2) Sarah Lewis - reports seeing a man and a woman. In some accounts a young (or rather young looking) man and a woman 'in drink'. Wickerman's position is that this can *only* have been Astrakhan Man and Mary Kelly going into No. 13 Miller's Court.

3) Thomas Bowyer - In a single Echo report from the 14th of November, Bowyer is quoted saying he saw a man who resembled the 'supposed murder' whilst going to and from the water tap in the court.

4) An unnamed customer of the shop who said to Mrs McCarthy 'I saw such a funny man up in the court this morning'. Mrs McCarthy forgot who this person was. From the same 14th of November Echo article.

Thanks Sean

well aman according to wick was not the killler-so 1 and 2 are irrelevent. I thought you guys were talking about all the same man who could have been the killer.
i thought bowyer only said he was in the court that night but didnt see the killer, only saying he wish he had no?
number four is way to dodgy.