The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[Wickerman]

"I saw such a funny man..."

Hi Jon,

I'm really struggling to imagine what seanr thinks was meant by that, if not the way the man was dressed. It was November, so he wasn't stripped to the waist and sporting budgie smugglers. 90% of what was on view would have been his attire. If he was wearing typical clothing for the time and place, what could have looked so funny about him? Two heads, perhaps? A bleached blond mullet? Clown's shoes?

Love,

Caz
X

Thankyou Caz, yes.
I sometimes shake my head at my own reluctance to state the bleeding obvious.
The man is probably not doing cartwheels down the passage, no dialogue is heard, so he isn't acting "funny", or talking "funny", it can only be his appearance. There was something "funny" about what the customer "saw", therefore - he looked "funny" for this part of town.
Gee,... I wonder who it could be?

Over the years on a number of Hutchinson threads I've learned one consistent point. Posters who are not inclined to just believe Hutchinson tend to make the strangest objections. It's almost become a matter of desperation to conjure up any argument rather than just accept what he said was true.
In these exchanges with seanr I don't recall him saying what his actual view of Hutchinson was, he just began raising objections to comments I wrote.

These four observations by four different witnesses still amount to circumstantial evidence, yet many criminal cases are decided on circumstantial evidence as opposed to hard proof.
And yet still objectors query, "why did Abberline believe Hutchinson?".

[Wickerman]

thanks wick

i thought bowyer only said he wish he had seen the man, not actually seeing some one correct? can you post the relevent article where he actually said he saw someone the night of marys murder?

Its back on post #97.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/mary-jane-kelly/760405-the-legend-of-mary-jane-kelly?p=760668#post760668

The relevant part begins:
"Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, who's description tallies with that of the supposed murderer...."

Later in the article he points out that he was not aware the man he saw had been the killer....

"The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off".

....so you think bowyer, lewis and of course hutch all saw aman, who in your opinion was not the killer-so who saw the killer(who youve said was the britannia man/bethnal green botherer) in millers court that night? just mrs McCarthys witness?

No, this point has always been about other witnesses corroborating Hutchinson's story, nothing else.
I never said anyone saw the actual killer.

As you know, I believe the statement by Mrs Kennedy, that she saw Kelly out again about 3:00am.
Plus, I've posted another press account where Scotland Yard had to return to Millers Court to interview the residents, where they then learned Kelly had been seen out in the streets between two & three o'clock.
So, in my view Astrachan cannot have been her killer.

[Abby Normal]

Its back on post #97.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/victims/mary-jane-kelly/760405-the-legend-of-mary-jane-kelly?p=760668#post760668

The relevant part begins:
"Early on Friday morning Bowyer saw a man, who's description tallies with that of the supposed murderer...."

Later in the article he points out that he was not aware the man he saw had been the killer....

"The murderer couldn't have come to a worse place than this court. There is only this narrow entrance, and if I had known he was there when I went to the water tap at three o'clock, I reckon he wouldn't have got off".



No, this point has always been about other witnesses corroborating Hutchinson's story, nothing else.
I never said anyone saw the actual killer.

As you know, I believe the statement by Mrs Kennedy, that she saw Kelly out again about 3:00am.
Plus, I've posted another press account where Scotland Yard had to return to Millers Court to interview the residents, where they then learned Kelly had been seen out in the streets between two & three o'clock.
So, in my view Astrachan cannot have been her killer.

ok thanks got it!

[Wickerman]

Kelly was last seen outside the Britannia, about 3:00am with that weird character who accosted Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy on the previous Wednesday night. What better suspect could there be?

[Abby Normal]

Kelly was last seen outside the Britannia, about 3:00am with that weird character who accosted Sarah Lewis & Mrs Kennedy on the previous Wednesday night. What better suspect could there be?

well ive got a few in mind-notably the men actually seen with kelly that night. but yes the Bethnal Green Botherer has always intrigued me as a suspect-hes around the time accosting and frightening women, trying to get them to go to a secluded place, and very much reminds me of the man whom marshall saw and heard with stride. and carrying a knife sized parcel! Plus as ive mentioned in the past-could he have followed lewis to millers court at distance?
hes on my second tier of viable suspects.

[Wickerman]

Thats right, the Bethnal Green Botherer/Britannia-man is the only contemporary candidate who displayed potentially threatening behaviour towards women in public.
What more could we want to legitimize a suspect, Kozminski didn't, neither did Druitt, Bury, or anyone else, except perhaps Tumblety, but that was in the U.S.

[Abby Normal]

Thats right, the Bethnal Green Botherer/Britannia-man is the only contemporary candidate who displayed potentially threatening behaviour towards women in public.
What more could we want to legitimize a suspect, Kozminski didn't, neither did Druitt, Bury, or anyone else, except perhaps Tumblety, but that was in the U.S.

well bury certainly did

[Wickerman]

Yeh, maybe, I've lost touch with Bury over the years, but Blotchy certainly didn't.

[Abby Normal]

Yeh, maybe, I've lost touch with Bury over the years, but Blotchy certainly didn't.

no one said he did lol

[Paddy]

I still think that this newspaper report of June 1889 could be connected to the BGB. In it they mention a man named Abrahams who seduced their friend ?

[Wickerman]

no one said he did lol

Agreed, I was more alluding to the fact he is a suspect in spite of the fact he shows no potential threat to Kelly.

Have you seen these reports in the Saturday press?, it appears the Bethnal Green/Britannia-man may have been arrested, and detained.

"A man was arrested to-night (Friday) in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them last night (Thursday), and whose movements excited suspicions. He was taken to Commercial street Police Station followed by an immense crowd."

"A tall middle-aged man with a dark moustache accosted two girls and spoke to them in a rather brutal way. One of them made a show of accompanying him, but as soon as she saw a policeman she gave him in custody. He was escorted by a howling mob to the police-station, where he was detained."

"On inquiring at Commercial street Police Station at 1 o'clock this morning (Sat.), our representative was informed that a man was still detained there pending inquiries, but that nothing definite had transpired."

All seem to refer to the same man, curiously similar to the actions of B.S.B., or Britannia-man.

[Abby Normal]

Agreed, I was more alluding to the fact he is a suspect in spite of the fact he shows no potential threat to Kelly.

Have you seen these reports in the Saturday press?, it appears the Bethnal Green/Britannia-man may have been arrested, and detained.

"A man was arrested to-night (Friday) in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them last night (Thursday), and whose movements excited suspicions. He was taken to Commercial street Police Station followed by an immense crowd."

"A tall middle-aged man with a dark moustache accosted two girls and spoke to them in a rather brutal way. One of them made a show of accompanying him, but as soon as she saw a policeman she gave him in custody. He was escorted by a howling mob to the police-station, where he was detained."

"On inquiring at Commercial street Police Station at 1 o'clock this morning (Sat.), our representative was informed that a man was still detained there pending inquiries, but that nothing definite had transpired."

All seem to refer to the same man, curiously similar to the actions of B.S.B., or Britannia-man.

interesting. yes it does kind of sound like him except the tall part

[Paddy]

South Wales Echo 10th Novemer 1888: This also added that the two women that reported him had been accosted by him the previous night.

[Wickerman]

Yes, the London Echo carried a more detailed account too.

"Late last night hundreds of people came surging down Commercial-street round a posse of police who guarded a tall, rather vigorous-looking man, who looked flushed and defiant, and was evidently strongly believed by the mob to be the assassin. It went from mouth to mouth that he blood on his clothes. The crowd in the wildest excitement rushed down to the station, but of course were excluded. What degree of importance was to be attached to the arrest could not then be known. The man was given into custody by some women as one who had accosted them on the previous night, and whose conduct was suspicious. The prisoner was, however, released - so the police announce - during to-day, his statements being verified."

Like Abby says, he is described as "tall", tall compared to who? Lewis described the 'Botherer' as "short", Kennedy said he was about 5' 8".

[Wickerman]

Mrs Paumier said it was the same man, and she thought him about 5' 6".

"A Mrs Paumier, a young woman who sells roasted chestnuts at the corner of Widegate-street, a narrow thoroughfare about two minutes' walk from the scene of the murder, told a reporter yesterday afternoon a story which appears to afford a clue to the murderer. She said that about 12 o'clock that morning a man dressed like a gentleman came to her, and said, "I suppose you have heard about the murder in Dorset-street?" She replied that she had, whereupon the man grinned, and said, "I know more about it than you." He then stared into her face and went down Sandy's-row, another narrow thoroughfare which cuts across Widegate-street. When he had got some way off, however, he looked back as if to see whether she was watching him, and then vanished. Mrs Paumier said the man had a black moustache, was about 5ft. 6in. high, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers. He also carried a black shiny bag about a foot in depth and a foot and a half in length. Mrs Paumier stated further that the same man accosted three young women whom she knows on Thursday night, and they chaffed him and asked what he had in the bag, and he replied, "Something that the ladies don't like." One of the three young women she named, Sarah Roney, a girl about twenty, states that she was with two other girls on Thursday night in Brushfield-street, which is near Dorset-street, when a man wearing a tall hat and a black coat, carrying a black bag, come up to her and said, "Will you come with me?" She told him she would not, and asked him what he had in the bag, and he said, "Something the ladies don't like." He then walked away."
Pall Mall Gazette, 10 Nov. 1888.