The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[Wickerman]

Agreeing with the above, I had noticed (in post 1, point 2) Martyn attributed ALL of Kelly's background to one source, Joe Barnet, but that was not strictly true.

[MrBarnett]

I believe Kelly was born in England, probably London, of Irish or Welsh parents. Therefore any part of the backstory relating to Ireland or Wales is false.

Anything of her history from 1886 to 1888, I'm willing to believe.

Hi Martin,

Do you discount Mrs ‘Phoenix’s’ account of Kelly’s arrival in the East End?

Gary

[erobitha]

I believe Kelly was born in England, probably London, of Irish or Welsh parents. Therefore any part of the backstory relating to Ireland or Wales is false.

Anything of her history from 1886 to 1888, I'm willing to believe.

That's an awfully narrow window you have given yourself to peer through, but good luck.

[mpriestnall]

Hello Martyn.

Does your use of 'Legend' presuppose some or all of those background stories are false?

I believe Kelly was born in England, probably London, of Irish or Welsh parents. Therefore any part of the backstory relating to Ireland or Wales is false.

Anything of her history from 1886 to 1888, I'm willing to believe.

[Wickerman]

I appreciate everyone's contributions thus far on this thread, particularly Wicks etc concerning who saw, what when and Debra's generous sharing of her Alice Carrol research.

Just wondered if any one has anything to add to the OP regarding the unpicking of the legend.

On the observation that only Barnett but no one else mentioned Kelly's husbands dramatic death?

Why did the authorities make up such an unlikely cause of his death?

Can anyone see any further holes in Kelly's backstory etc

Martyn

Hello Martyn.

Does your use of 'Legend' presuppose some or all of those background stories are false?

[mpriestnall]

I appreciate everyone's contributions thus far on this thread, particularly Wicks etc concerning who saw, what when and Debra's generous sharing of her Alice Carrol research.

Just wondered if any one has anything to add to the OP regarding the unpicking of the legend.

On the observation that only Barnett but no one else mentioned Kelly's husbands dramatic death?

Why did the authorities make up such an unlikely cause of his death?

Can anyone see any further holes in Kelly's backstory etc

Martyn

[spyglass]

Linking Mary to the "Phoenix Park" murders goes back a good twenty years I think.
I believe Nick Warren came up with a theory that even suggested that the knives used in the assination, some went missing and could possibly have been used in the ripper murders.

[Wickerman]

Indeed it does, but the Morning Advertiser gives: 5' 7"
The Irish Times gives: 5' 8".
Yet The Evening News, St. James Gazette, and a couple of others do not give a height.

[Joshua Rogan]

According to the Star, Mrs Kennedy described her accoster as about 6ft tall;

"Mrs. Kennedy has since supplemented the above statement by the following :-

"On Wednesday evening, about eight o'clock, me and my sister were in the neighborhood of Bethnal-green-road when we were accosted by a very suspicious man about 40 years of age. He was about 6ft. high, and wore a short jacket, over which he had a long top-coat. He had a black moustache, and wore a billycock hat."

[Wickerman]

Mrs Paumier said it was the same man, and she thought him about 5' 6".

"A Mrs Paumier, a young woman who sells roasted chestnuts at the corner of Widegate-street, a narrow thoroughfare about two minutes' walk from the scene of the murder, told a reporter yesterday afternoon a story which appears to afford a clue to the murderer. She said that about 12 o'clock that morning a man dressed like a gentleman came to her, and said, "I suppose you have heard about the murder in Dorset-street?" She replied that she had, whereupon the man grinned, and said, "I know more about it than you." He then stared into her face and went down Sandy's-row, another narrow thoroughfare which cuts across Widegate-street. When he had got some way off, however, he looked back as if to see whether she was watching him, and then vanished. Mrs Paumier said the man had a black moustache, was about 5ft. 6in. high, and wore a black silk hat, a black coat, and speckled trousers. He also carried a black shiny bag about a foot in depth and a foot and a half in length. Mrs Paumier stated further that the same man accosted three young women whom she knows on Thursday night, and they chaffed him and asked what he had in the bag, and he replied, "Something that the ladies don't like." One of the three young women she named, Sarah Roney, a girl about twenty, states that she was with two other girls on Thursday night in Brushfield-street, which is near Dorset-street, when a man wearing a tall hat and a black coat, carrying a black bag, come up to her and said, "Will you come with me?" She told him she would not, and asked him what he had in the bag, and he said, "Something the ladies don't like." He then walked away."
Pall Mall Gazette, 10 Nov. 1888.

[Wickerman]

Yes, the London Echo carried a more detailed account too.

"Late last night hundreds of people came surging down Commercial-street round a posse of police who guarded a tall, rather vigorous-looking man, who looked flushed and defiant, and was evidently strongly believed by the mob to be the assassin. It went from mouth to mouth that he blood on his clothes. The crowd in the wildest excitement rushed down to the station, but of course were excluded. What degree of importance was to be attached to the arrest could not then be known. The man was given into custody by some women as one who had accosted them on the previous night, and whose conduct was suspicious. The prisoner was, however, released - so the police announce - during to-day, his statements being verified."

Like Abby says, he is described as "tall", tall compared to who? Lewis described the 'Botherer' as "short", Kennedy said he was about 5' 8".

[Paddy]

South Wales Echo 10th Novemer 1888: This also added that the two women that reported him had been accosted by him the previous night.

[Abby Normal]

Agreed, I was more alluding to the fact he is a suspect in spite of the fact he shows no potential threat to Kelly.

Have you seen these reports in the Saturday press?, it appears the Bethnal Green/Britannia-man may have been arrested, and detained.

"A man was arrested to-night (Friday) in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them last night (Thursday), and whose movements excited suspicions. He was taken to Commercial street Police Station followed by an immense crowd."

"A tall middle-aged man with a dark moustache accosted two girls and spoke to them in a rather brutal way. One of them made a show of accompanying him, but as soon as she saw a policeman she gave him in custody. He was escorted by a howling mob to the police-station, where he was detained."

"On inquiring at Commercial street Police Station at 1 o'clock this morning (Sat.), our representative was informed that a man was still detained there pending inquiries, but that nothing definite had transpired."

All seem to refer to the same man, curiously similar to the actions of B.S.B., or Britannia-man.

interesting. yes it does kind of sound like him except the tall part

[Wickerman]

no one said he did lol

Agreed, I was more alluding to the fact he is a suspect in spite of the fact he shows no potential threat to Kelly.

Have you seen these reports in the Saturday press?, it appears the Bethnal Green/Britannia-man may have been arrested, and detained.

"A man was arrested to-night (Friday) in Whitechapel on suspicion of having committed the Dorset street crime. He was pointed out to the police by some women as a man who had accosted them last night (Thursday), and whose movements excited suspicions. He was taken to Commercial street Police Station followed by an immense crowd."

"A tall middle-aged man with a dark moustache accosted two girls and spoke to them in a rather brutal way. One of them made a show of accompanying him, but as soon as she saw a policeman she gave him in custody. He was escorted by a howling mob to the police-station, where he was detained."

"On inquiring at Commercial street Police Station at 1 o'clock this morning (Sat.), our representative was informed that a man was still detained there pending inquiries, but that nothing definite had transpired."

All seem to refer to the same man, curiously similar to the actions of B.S.B., or Britannia-man.

[Paddy]

I still think that this newspaper report of June 1889 could be connected to the BGB. In it they mention a man named Abrahams who seduced their friend ?