The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[MrBarnett]

I was born in Ireland but grew up in London. I very much have a London accent. My parents are Irish. Their parents are Irish. There are very few in that group who can speak Irish fluently. A few can speak some words. I know about three phrases. Language is pragmatic to your immediate surroundings generally.

Why would a London girl be able to speak fluent Welsh unless she lived there for a formative part of her life?

Especially if she had been born in Ireland.

One of my favourite research subjects is Bridget Enright (aka Biddy the Chiver) who was born in Wales in 1874 of Irish parents. For good measure, her father worked in an iron works and the family relocated to the East End around 1886. There was a lot of anti-Irish feeling in Wales at the time, stemming from the famine times when thousands of starving Irish workers flooded into industrial South Wales. I don’t imagine there was a lot of mixing between the two communities


I don’t think Welsh would have been taught in schools at the time and it seems unlikely that a Catholic Irish girl would have had sufficient exposure to the native Welsh culture to have picked up the lingo. That said, if she did in fact marry a Welshman then perhaps she might have picked up enough Welsh phrases to convince her Cockney pals that she was fluent in the language?

[MrBarnett]

Yes and no!

I think the confusion about Kelly's Welsh/Irish origins is partly explained by her being, as I believe, a London born 2nd generation irish/welsh woman.

She may have allowed people to believe she was irish/welsh because she wanted to hide from her husband/family in London after finding herself on the streets.

I don't believe she originated the other details of her irish/welsh origins as supplied by Barnett at the inquest.

I'm fully in on an establishment cover up of these murders and believe they supplied Barnett the rest of the legend to hide any connection to Astrakhan and Jack.

What do you make of the missing details of Kelly's arrival in London?

Sorry, I posted my ‘what do you make’ before I’d read yours. But my post perhaps goes some way to answering your question?

Provincial - and Continental - women were being lured into vice in London all the time I believe. In Kelly’s case, if it was true that it had been her cousin in Cardiff who introduced her to prostitution, maybe someone in Wales recognise her potential to work in the more lucrative West End and trafficked her, knowingly or unknowingly, there.

[erobitha]

Yes and no!

I think the confusion about Kelly's Welsh/Irish origins is partly explained by her being, as I believe, a London born 2nd generation irish/welsh woman.

She may have allowed people to believe she was irish/welsh because she wanted to hide from her husband/family in London after finding herself on the streets.

I don't believe she originated the other details of her irish/welsh origins as supplied by Barnett at the inquest.

I'm fully in on an establishment cover up of these murders and believe they supplied Barnett the rest of the legend to hide any connection to Astrakhan and Jack.

What do you make of the missing details of Kelly's arrival in London?

I was born in Ireland but grew up in London. I very much have a London accent. My parents are Irish. Their parents are Irish. There are very few in that group who can speak Irish fluently. A few can speak some words. I know about three phrases. Language is pragmatic to your immediate surroundings generally.

Why would a London girl be able to speak fluent Welsh unless she lived there for a formative part of her life?

[MrBarnett]

That's a good point.

I believe Kelly come from a respectable London working class family, led a conventional life in service and then became estranged from her husband and or family. sometime between say 1885-1887. Something happened to her, perhaps got pregnant outside of marriage or acquired a STD, that caused this estrangement. She found herself out on the streets and ended up crossing paths with the Breezer Hill mob and then eventually Jack.

What do you make of Mrs McCarthy’s story about MJK and Mrs Buki retrieving a box of clothing from Kelly’s previous ‘landlady’, a French woman living in Knightsbridge?

[mpriestnall]

Was Kelly herself complicit in the creation of the legend, do you think? Did she deliberately tell Barnett and the Breezer’s Hill people a fake story?

Yes and no!

I think the confusion about Kelly's Welsh/Irish origins is partly explained by her being, as I believe, a London born 2nd generation irish/welsh woman.

She may have allowed people to believe she was irish/welsh because she wanted to hide from her husband/family in London after finding herself on the streets.

I don't believe she originated the other details of her irish/welsh origins as supplied by Barnett at the inquest.

I'm fully in on an establishment cover up of these murders and believe they supplied Barnett the rest of the legend to hide any connection to Astrakhan and Jack.

What do you make of the missing details of Kelly's arrival in London?

[MrBarnett]

That’s interesting, Martyn.

Debra found a record of a woman named Jane Blair whose child, John Joseph, had been baptised in April, 1885 while she was living at 79, Pennington Street. The child had been born in the STGITE infirmary in December, 1885 and died a year later in Station Place a narrow close inhabited by the notorious Nodding/Noding family of brothel keepers who also moved to Limehouse in the early 1890s.

The baptism record shows Jane Blair’s husband as John Blair, a labourer. He and Jane have proved impossible to definitively track down, but I did find one candidate who died in late 1884, aged 24.

So many MJK echoes there: a woman - presumably a prostitute - living at 79, PS while Morgenstern/Boekee were in charge/middle name Jane/subsequently moving to Station Place near a gas works/a child named Johnjo(seph)/possible widowhood while in her 20s/untraceable after 1885…

Another thing to throw into the mix here is the fact that Blair is a Scottish name and the John Blair I have found in SGITE was from Glasgow. And something that is rarely mentioned is that the 2nd Bn Scots Guards were stationed at the Tower of London, a few minutes walk from Pennington Street, in October 1886. A coincidence?

[MrBarnett]

That's a good point.

I believe Kelly come from a respectable London working class family, led a conventional life in service and then became estranged from her husband and or family. sometime between say 1885-1887. Something happened to her, perhaps got pregnant outside of marriage or acquired a STD, that caused this estrangement. She found herself out on the streets and ended up crossing paths with the Breezer Hill mob and then eventually Jack.

That’s interesting, Martyn.

Debra found a record of a woman named Jane Blair whose child, John Joseph, had been baptised in April, 1885 while she was living at 79, Pennington Street. The child had been born in the STGITE infirmary in December, 1885 and died a year later in Station Place a narrow close inhabited by the notorious Nodding/Noding family of brothel keepers who also moved to Limehouse in the early 1890s.

The baptism record shows Jane Blair’s husband as John Blair, a labourer. He and Jane have proved impossible to definitively track down, but I did find one candidate for John who died in late 1884, aged 24.

So many MJK echoes there: a woman - presumably a prostitute - living at 79, PS while Morgenstern/Boekee were in charge/middle name Jane/subsequently moving to Station Place near a gas works/a child named Johnjo(seph)/possible widowhood while in her 20s/untraceable after 1885…

[mpriestnall]

You’re welcome, Martyn.

Elizabeth Phoenix’s actions have always struck me as a bit odd. What could have motivated to reveal to the world that her brother-in-law was a Ratcliff Highway brothel keeper? Not explicitly, of course, but anyone putting 2 and 2 together could have figured it out.

...

That's a good point.

I believe Kelly come from a respectable London working class family, led a conventional life in service and then became estranged from her husband and or family. sometime between say 1885-1887. Something happened to her, perhaps got pregnant outside of marriage or acquired a STD, that caused this estrangement. She found herself out on the streets and ended up crossing paths with the Breezer Hill mob and then eventually Jack.

[MrBarnett]

A significant part of Kelly's backstory is missing, namely the part accounting for her arrival in London. Did she have some kind of employment offer awaiting her? Did she accompany an employer from Wales to London? Did she travel to London with her family or did she travel alone to London to meet up with family already in London? Whatever brought her to London would be have been of significance to Kelly's story, and therefore one would expect Kelly to have informed Barnett of these details. In contrast to details of her life in Wales, such as her time in Cardiff, however, we have no details whatsoever explaining her arrival in London. Why not?

Details of Kelly's journey to London had to be omitted from the Kelly legend because anyone investigating them, such as the journalists covering her murder, on trying to trace them, would have readily discovered they were invented details. Any investigation in London, or along the way from Wales, of family, of employers etc accounting for her journey to London would soon have been discovered to be fake, so they had to omitted or the whole backstory would have unraveled.

The missing details of Kelly's journey to London is thus consistent with her Barnett supplied backstory being a legend.

Was Kelly herself complicit in the creation of the legend, do you think? Did she deliberately tell Barnett and the Breezer’s Hill people a fake story?

Incidentally, I don’t believe Kelly ever lived at a Breezer’s Hill address. 79, Pennington Street seems to have been attached to 1, Breezer’s Hill when it was the Old Red Lion pub and the pub’s address fluctuated over the years between Breezers Hill and Pennington Street. When we hear of Kelly living in Breezer’s Hill/Pennington Street/the Highway with ‘Morganstone’ (Morgenstern) ‘Buki’ (Boekee) and Mrs McCarthy (possibly a Mrs Woodhouse née McCarthy), it gives the impression that she may have lived at 3 addresses in the area. In fact it seems that it was the people running the ‘bad house’ at 79, PS who moved about. Several of them relocated to Limehouse ca 1890 and there was also a connection between these people and another red light area near the Johnson Street gas works.

Morgenstern, Boekee, Woodhouse (McCarthy), Miller and Maywood in combination are what I call the ‘Breezers Hill Mob’. A lot of work has been done on this group by the Sheldens, Debra Arif (+ myself and others) over the years. Over on JTRForums Howard Brown found a fascinating account of Johannes Morgenstern viciously attacking three prostitutes in Limehouse in 1890 (or thereabouts). He kicked one between the legs, stabbed another and beat the third with a poker. Before attacking the third woman, he removed his jacket and vest - a very chilling detail in my opinion. And then we have the axe attack on a woman named Lottie Jones in 1891 while John Miller was apparently running 79, PS. These were apparently very violent people who reacted badly to those when anyone got in their way.

The period between MJK leaving the West End and turning up in Spitalfields is what interests me most about her story.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Mr B!

You’re welcome, Martyn.

Elizabeth Phoenix’s actions have always struck me as a bit odd. What could have motivated to reveal to the world that her brother-in-law was a Ratcliff Highway brothel keeper? Not explicitly, of course, but anyone putting 2 and 2 together could have figured it out.

Kelly’s time in the orbit of the ‘Breezer’s Hill Mob’ is what most interests me.

[mpriestnall]

A significant part of Kelly's backstory is missing, namely the part accounting for her arrival in London. Did she have some kind of employment offer awaiting her? Did she accompany an employer from Wales to London? Did she travel to London with her family or did she travel alone to London to meet up with family already in London? Whatever brought her to London would be have been of significance to Kelly's story, and therefore one would expect Kelly to have informed Barnett of these details. In contrast to details of her life in Wales, such as her time in Cardiff, however, we have no details whatsoever explaining her arrival in London. Why not?

These easy-to-investigate recent life details of Kelly's journey to London had to be omitted from the Kelly story because anyone investigating them, such as the journalists covering her murder, on trying to trace them, would have readily discovered they were invented details. Kelly's journey to London was omitted to protect the rest of Kelly's legend.

The missing details of Kelly's journey to London is thus consistent with her Barnett supplied backstory being a legend.

[mpriestnall]

Elizabeth Felix was the wife of Johannes Morgenstern’s brother, Adrianus.

On the evening of 11th November, she trekked all the way from her home in Bow Common Lane to Leman Street police station to make a statement as to the Miller’s Court victim’s identity.

She stated that about 3 years previously a woman answering the description of the victim had lived at her brother-in-law’s house in Breezer’s Hill, Pennington Street. She described Kelly as being aged 22 at the time, 5’ 7” tall and somewhat stout, with hair nearly to her waist, blue eyes and two missing teeth. At the time, the woman was using the name Mary Jane Kelly, but there was some uncertainty about her nationality. At times she claimed to be Welsh and having been ‘abandoned’ by her parents in Cardiff. At other times she claimed to be Irish. According to Mrs Felix, Kelly was a ‘decent and nice’ girl when sober, but quarrelsome and abusive when drunk. She had left Breezer’s Hill two years previously for the Commercial Road, and Mrs Felix had received reports of her operating as a prostitute in that area.

Thanks Mr B!

[MrBarnett]

Can you summarize her account for me? I have a point to make about her recent history in my next post.

Anyhow, I have no reasons to reject anything of the recent account from anyone, if they pertain to the last 2/3 years of Kelly's history.
Some of that history was corroborated by Barnett and Phoenix/Buki was it not? And didn't Phoenix and/or Buki also mention Kelly's Irish/Welsh ancestry in addition to other acquaintances of Kelly?

Those responsible for inventing and promulgating the legend would not have needed to invent Kelly's recent history as it wouldn't have been vitally needed to disguise her identity, if Kelly was a recent stranger to that part of London. It would, however, have been dangerous for them to do so because it would be readily undermined by her Whitechapel acquaintances.

Which brings me to another aspect of her backstory which is consistent with it being a "legend"...

Elizabeth Felix was the wife of Johannes Morgenstern’s brother, Adrianus.

On the evening of 11th November, she trekked all the way from her home in Bow Common Lane to Leman Street police station to make a statement as to the Miller’s Court victim’s identity.

She stated that about 3 years previously a woman answering the description of the victim had lived at her brother-in-law’s house in Breezer’s Hill, Pennington Street. She described Kelly as being aged 22 at the time, 5’ 7” tall and somewhat stout, with hair nearly to her waist, blue eyes and two missing teeth. At the time, the woman was using the name Mary Jane Kelly, but there was some uncertainty about her nationality. At times she claimed to be Welsh and having been ‘abandoned’ by her parents in Cardiff. At other times she claimed to be Irish. According to Mrs Felix, Kelly was a ‘decent and nice’ girl when sober, but quarrelsome and abusive when drunk. She had left Breezer’s Hill two years previously for the Commercial Road, and Mrs Felix had received reports of her operating as a prostitute in that area.

[mpriestnall]

Hi Martin,

Do you discount Mrs ‘Phoenix’s’ account of Kelly’s arrival in the East End?

Gary

Can you summarize her account for me? I have a point to make about her recent history in my next post.

Anyhow, I have no reasons to reject anything of the recent account from anyone, if they pertain to the last 2/3 years of Kelly's history.
Some of that history was corroborated by Barnett and Phoenix/Buki was it not? And didn't Phoenix and/or Buki also mention Kelly's Irish/Welsh ancestry in addition to other acquaintances of Kelly?

Those responsible for inventing and promulgating the legend would not have needed to invent Kelly's recent history as it wouldn't have been vitally needed to disguise her identity, if Kelly was a recent stranger to that part of London. It would, however, have been dangerous for them to do so because it would be readily undermined by her Whitechapel acquaintances.

Which brings me to another aspect of her backstory which is consistent with it being a "legend"...

[mpriestnall]

That's an awfully narrow window you have given yourself to peer through, but good luck.

Thanks, erobitha.