The Legend Of Mary Jane Kelly

[seanr]

As a suspect no, pretty poor in fact.




Hutch did say he recognised the man, which makes you wonder just how many Astrachan-looking men lived in the neighborhood, besides Isaacs?




I think that is less likely, Sarah Lewis saw Kelly with a man as Hutchinson looked on, so we know Astrachan was not an invention - he existed.
We could query whether the actual suspect was dressed so ostentatiously as Hutchinson described.

Sarah Lewis did not know Mary Kelly. She said she saw a man with a woman at the bottom of Dorset Street, a man she knew as he had previously behaved suspiciously towards her in Bethnal Green but the woman could have been anyone. It can't have been astrachan man she saw though - her man wore no overcoat.

[Wickerman]

Isaacs definitely is not a credible suspect.

As a suspect no, pretty poor in fact.

Hutchinson may have known Isaacs, at least to have seen him in the street to be able to give a recognisable description (he would have been distinctive in his appearance, no?)..

Hutch did say he recognised the man, which makes you wonder just how many Astrachan-looking men lived in the neighborhood, besides Isaacs?

Hutchinson came forward after the inquest. So, if the Mary Kelly backstory given at the inquest was intended to protect anyone it might more likely be thought to be Blotchy. Which raises the possibility that the Astrachan Man story may also have been to divert suspicion away from Blotchy.

I think that is less likely, Sarah Lewis saw Kelly with a man as Hutchinson looked on, so we know Astrachan was not an invention - he existed.
We could query whether the actual suspect was dressed so ostentatiously as Hutchinson described.

[seanr]

As an aside, what was it with the kitchens at lodging houses? - that's where Isaacs made his strange remarks, Annie Chapman had a fight and Alexander Munroe was fatally wounded when he fell on a knife.

I guess kitchen's were where all the action was.

[seanr]

Perhaps at risk at derailing the thread, but I do consider the point as to whether Astrakhan Man was correctly identified with Joseph Isaacs to be relevant. Here's a report from Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper on 16th of December, 1888. The article points out that Isaacs' 'appearance certainly answered to the published description of a man with an astrachan trimming to his coat'.

Mary Cusins remembered on the night of the murder, she heard Joseph Isaacs walking about his room. We now know she was at best mistaken, as Joseph Isaacs was not in his room on the night of the murder. He was in police custody on the charge of stealing a coat. Cornelius Oakes supports her claims and a resident named Catherine made serious accusations against him.

So, did some of the lodging house residents try to implicate a local eccentric? And was George Hutchinson part of that effort? - it might be impossible to prove, of course. But I can't easily dismiss the possibility, either.

[seanr]

I'd bet good money Mary Cusins knew John McCarthy.

[seanr]

Sean, Joseph Isaacs stayed at the Green Dragon in Barnet on Wednesday night. On Thursday he was arrested for theft and put in jail at Barnet, where he was held until he appeared in court, in Barnet, on Monday.

There just is not any way Isaacs could have been involved.

Alternately, I suppose it could be argued that Hutchinson described Isaacs as Astrachan in order to incriminate him, that's about the only way we can associate Isaacs with Kelly's murder.
That hypothesis would require that Hutchinson knew Isaacs, which we cannot demonstrate at the moment.

Isaacs definitely is not a credible suspect. As you say, he was not at his freedom on November the 8th.

Hutchinson may have known Isaacs, at least to have seen him in the street to be able to give a recognisable description (he would have been distinctive in his appearance, no?) but it just as possible Hutchinson knew Mary Cusins the lodging house deputy in Paternoster Row who had this suspicious lodger and / or Cornelius Oakes her lodger who backed up her claim Isaacs was suspicious and threatened violence against women, and that's where he picked up the description to provide to the police.

Hutchinson came forward after the inquest. So, if the Mary Kelly backstory given at the inquest was intended to protect anyone it might more likely be thought to be Blotchy. Which raises the possibility that the Astrachan Man story may also have been to divert suspicion away from Blotchy.

[seanr]

Seanr,

Could you explain a little more about this. Why would Hutchinson insert Joseph Isaacs a as red herring?

I'm interested to know your take with Astrakhan, Hutchinson, Blotchy, Kelly etc

Martyn

Well, I note that Astrachan Man is very definitely associated with Joseph Isaacs who was said to have answered the description given by George Hutchinson but turned out to have a cast iron alibi (was at her majesty's pleasure) on November the 8th, but had also stayed at a local lodging house so his description might be known to local people. His description may have been singularly distinctive... what are the chances of two Astrachan Men in the East End at the time?

You may also note that in the case of the Kitty Ronan murder at Miller's Court in 1909, there was coincidentally again a man stood in Dorset Street opposite Miller's Court; we have Alfred Wilkins as a witness apparently seeing the victim with a man before entering the court and waiting until he sees the man leave.

Almost every picture we have, whether illustration or photograph, appears to have a chair or a group of women sat outside Miller's Court. In George Duckworth's walk through Dorset Street the PC guiding him notes a woman who has always sat staring out of the window (of what maybe Crossingham's lodging house) for years. The street seems like it is under constant watch.

Then add a dose of the claims the lodging house keepers, specifically John McCarthy were 'gang' leaders. McCarthy was certainly involved in illegal boxing... which may also suggest illegal sports betting and so maybe the more organised crime such as the illegal casinos, protection rackets and the tobacco smuggling in the East End at the time. More directly related though is the suspicions of the Dorset Street lodging houses operating as brothels, and more specifically Miller's Court being such. This would provide a reason for the street to be watched. George Hutchinson may have been working on behalf of John McCarthy, either on the 8th of November or afterwards when he came forward and fingered a locally recognisable eccentric.

John McCarthy may have been operating as police informant against the Fenian's who were operating in London at the time and with whom, as an alleged Irish gang leader, he may have had associations with. You may have illicit money, useful police information (about affairs of state no less, which might be judged as 'more important' than the lives of East End unfortunates) and perhaps organised crime. All the kinds of associations which tend to be found in situations where police corruption is present. I believe John McCarthy attended Abberline's retirement party, by the way.

Then there's Blotchy... possibly identified (by a modern source and not necessarily reliable) as Henry Buckley, a man employed by John McCarthy as a shopman but some seem to be of the opinion he was McCarthy's hired muscle.
Some wonder if Blotchy so exactly matched the description of a man who lived in Dorset Street, how he wasn't ever brought into the investigation. He was in police custody for a stabbing in Dorset Street in December 1888. I wonder why the police wouldn't be interested in him, too, but don't necessarily conclude it was because he might not reasonably be considered a suspect.

A lot of crazy speculation, but if only a little more of it could more definitely proved...

[Wickerman]

Astrakhan man may very well have been Joseph Isaacs and a red herring inserted into the case by Hutchinson....

Sean, Joseph Isaacs stayed at the Green Dragon in Barnet on Wednesday night. On Thursday he was arrested for theft and put in jail at Barnet, where he was held until he appeared in court, in Barnet, on Monday.

There just is not any way Isaacs could have been involved.

Alternately, I suppose it could be argued that Hutchinson described Isaacs as Astrachan in order to incriminate him, that's about the only way we can associate Isaacs with Kelly's murder.
That hypothesis would require that Hutchinson knew Isaacs, which we cannot demonstrate at the moment.

[mpriestnall]

Astrakhan man may very well have been Joseph Isaacs and a red herring inserted into the case by Hutchinson. If there was a fake backstory to protect a suspect, could it not just have easily have been to protect Blotchy?

Seanr,

Could you explain a little more about this. Why would Hutchinson insert Joseph Isaacs a as red herring?

I'm interested to know your take with Astrakhan, Hutchinson, Blotchy, Kelly etc

Martyn

[mpriestnall]

Astrakhan man may very well have been Joseph Isaacs and a red herring inserted into the case by Hutchinson. If there was a fake backstory to protect a suspect, could it not just have easily have been to protect Blotchy?

Yes, definitely.

My take though is bit more complicated in that I believe Blotchy (JTR) and Astrakhan were working together and therefore they were both being protected.

Kelly's fake backstory, foreshortened Inquest, missing witnesses (E.g. Hutchinson) were all part of that protection.

[seanr]

Legend:
"A spy's claimed background or biography, usually supported by documents and memorized details".

Kelly, though not a spy, was given a "legend" by the authorities through the vehicle of Joseph Barnett's testimony
at Kelly's inquest. The reason for the legend was to hide the connection between Kelly and Astrakhan Man and Jack the Ripper.

The following points do not prove that Kelly's backstory was a legend but are nevertheless are all consistent with such a legend:

1. Numerous people have searched for Kelly for decades using the Irish/Welsh backstory and all have failed to find any trace of Kelly. This fact alone should throw doubt on the veracity of her backstory.

2. All her early backstory originates from only one source, namely Joe Barnett.

I find it particularly incredible that the dramatic death of her husband was not separately reported by any of Kelly's Miller's Court cohorts. It would be natural to expect Kelly to share some of her history with her neighbours. She would have plenty of opportunity to do so, since she had been living in Miller's Court since the early spring. However no one, apart from Barnett, reported this most dramatic event.

3. The surnames for maiden name (Kelly) and married name (Davies) are two of the most common surnames found in Ireland and Wales. These names would make it difficult for any contemporary effort to disprove her fake identity.

4. Kelly's birth place Limerick could have been chosen for her because of it's ambiguity, namely it's not clear if it refers to the town or county, thus again making difficult to disprove. Kelly would have reported to Barnett her town rather than the county as her place of birth, yet there was no contemporaneous confirmation that Kelly had any connection to Limerick town.

Martyn

Astrakhan man may very well have been Joseph Isaacs and a red herring inserted into the case by Hutchinson. If there was a fake backstory to protect a suspect, could it not just have easily have been to protect Blotchy?

[MrBarnett]

Even "John McCarthy."

The addition of ‘Esq’ is helpful in that it narrows the field to prominent local businessmen.

[Debra A]

Even "John McCarthy."

Even "John McCarthy"
But the more capable researchers are probably able to discern between those using Catholic Church records, newspapers etc.

[Debra A]

There has been enough posted on this thread to cast a doubt as previoulsy stated, and where is Alices sworn testimony?

Alice's sworn testimony was reproduced in many sources, for example
Report of The Trials at The Dublin Commission Court, April and May, 1883, of The Prisoners Charged With The Phœnix Park Murder, The Attempt to Murder Mr. Field, and The Conspiracy to Murder

Author: Justice O'BrienDate: 1883
Publisher: n.p. (Dublin)

[Scott Nelson]

Anyone familiar with genealogical records would know just how common the name McCarthy was in East London alone.

Even "John McCarthy."