'Johnto'

[erobitha]

John Thomas Snr was a labourer in Carmarthen census of 1871. There was an iron works and a tin plate works within walking distance of their address at that time.

John Thomas Jnr I believe was born in Merthyr Tydfill in 1862. The family appear on the 1881 census minus Mary in Merthyr Tydfill - guessing family links. Both listed as coal miners.

A John Thomas of the right age and birth year joined the Grenadier Guards in September 1886. He put his birth town down as Pontypridd. 12 miles south of Merthyr Tydfil. Could be purely coincidental. Iterestingly, the Royal Barracks in Dublin was home to the 3rd Batallion of the Grenadier Guards from 1867 - 1881, but pre-dates this John Thomas date of joining.

[Wickerman]

And wasn’t ‘Johnto’ the nickname used by Henry’s comrades in the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, who were, just as Barnett said, in Dublin at the time he made his statement?

Also, we shouldn’t forget there was a minor sporting celebrity who used the nickname ‘Johnto’ in the 1870s.

Thats not specifically, what Abberline wrote.
This debate concern's what Henry's comrade's knew him as; Johnto, or John, like his father (ie; John too). As the latter fits the context of what Abberline wrote.

Why would you give the name "Johnto", to someone called Henry?
Whereas, this same Henry may have preferred to be known by the same name as his father - John. Which is a very common occurrence.
What we don't know of course is, if Henry's second name was John, also very common to have a second name after your own father.

It's the context which I believe is all important, we only get that when we read the complete paragraph.

[erobitha]

I should add that the 2nd Btn SG had been stationed at the Tower, a few minutes walk from Pennington Street while MJK was apparently there.

As you I’m sure you know, there is no service record for a Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards. The John Thomas’s also do not fit.

[erobitha]

I think anyone who harbours ambitions that every piece of detail MJK supplied others is 100% accurate will be sorely disappointed. Some details will have been embellished at the very least. Not every detail out there will fit neatly and nicely but just how close can we get to as much of it as possible?

If you were to grade the potential candidates being discussed as being MJK I am convinced my Mary Thomas would be in the mix.

[MrBarnett]

And wasn’t ‘Johnto’ the nickname used by Henry’s comrades in the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, who were, just as Barnett said, in Dublin at the time he made his statement?

Also, we shouldn’t forget there was a minor sporting celebrity who used the nickname ‘Johnto’ in the 1870s.

I should add that the 2nd Btn SG had been stationed at the Tower, a few minutes walk from Pennington Street while MJK was apparently there.

[MrBarnett]

The point about Abberline's note is that the brother's name was Henry, not John.

And wasn’t ‘Johnto’ the nickname used by Henry’s comrades in the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, who were, just as Barnett said, in Dublin at the time he made his statement?

Also, we shouldn’t forget there was a minor sporting celebrity who used the nickname ‘Johnto’ in the 1870s.

[Wickerman]

The point about Abberline's note is that the brother's name was Henry, not John.

[Prosector]

With reference to Johnto. My grandfather, John Evan Weston Davies was known to his family as Johnto throughout his life (and as you know, I think he was the Johnto who visited MJK in the East End). The to suffix had nothing to do with Thomas. Adding to or o to boys names is very common in Wales, particularly North Wales (think of ther habit of saying boyo rather than boy in Wales). His son Wynne (my uncle) was known as Wynnto and sometimes signed his name that way and I have been known as Wynno to my family throughout my life. Johnto should actually be written Ianto as there is no J in Welsh.
Prosector

[Wickerman]

My brother used to joke that his son is "John too",as was our father.

And that is precisely the context where 'Johnto' is used.
Context is everything, when people isolate a name out of context they will end up venturing down numerous rabbit holes in search of a meaning.

Kelly's father was named John, her brother was known as "John too".
Lots of people today don't use a second 'o' ("to" instead of "too"), it is extremely common.
What is more, Abberline was known to string his words together.

[erobitha]

(I'm assuming it was a coalmine btw, not a colamine - delicious though that sounds).

Ha ha - tiredness is catching up with me

I'm still pulling at a few threads but the timings fit extremely well:

- The Thomas family I am researching can be traced to the birth of the mother Phoebe and Father John in Carmarthen
- Their marriage in 1858 was in Carmarthen
- They then disappear altogether on the 1861 census in Wales. Turns out the 1861 Irish census records have all been lost in a fire. My guess from around 1860-1870 they were in Ireland where the children were most likely born (still hunting those births down to match up)
- The family reappear in Carmarthen in the 1871 census with numerous children including a girl called Mary born in 1864, which if is our Mary as I believe was 24 when murdered
- William Davies & Mary Thomas married in the 2nd quarter of 1879 in Carmarthen
- In July 1879 William Davies and Mary Thomas welcomed a baby daughter named Mary Elizabeth Davies born in Carmarthen. Mary had a sister called Elizabeth and coincidentally another called Jane
- In July 1880 Risca coalmine explosion saw over 100 men die. In the local papers the following day they named the dead and their marital status. Only two Davies were named, James and William. James was listed as single and William was listed as married
- In 1881 census the Thomas family have appeared in Merthyr Tydfill this time, minus Mary but with another daughter born since. John Snr & Jnr become coal miners
- Also in 1881 a 17 year old prostitute called Mary Thomas working in a brothel in Newport, just a few miles outside of Risca was arrested and charged with robbing a client. She was acquitted for being "too young" but the brothel keeper Mrs Haggarty was sent to prison for the crime. Could be the same Mary looking to survive after the death of her husband and with a baby daughter to look after.

I have more but I'll sit on that for now

[Chava]

But how many men with the Davies surname were killed in pit disasters? Surprisingly few and even fewer within the relevant time period.

However my point is that judging by what I've read his name may not be down on the manifest as Davies even though that was the name he registered when he started at the colliery. And not for any nefarious purpose either. Multiple names seemed quite common.

[Bridewell]

I have established a marriage between William Davies and Mary Thomas in 1879 in Carmarthen. A William Davies died in the 1880 Risca colamine disaster.

That is very interesting - Davies - Mary - Carmarthen & a good fit for the date. I'm interested if no-one else is because the identity of MJK is the great mystery - more important than the identity of JtR because he was a waste of space, good-for-nothing nobody - whoever he was.

(I'm assuming it was a coalmine btw, not a colamine - delicious though that sounds).

[Bridewell]

And?
Do you know how many Davies & Thomas there were in Wales at that time?
And still.

But how many men with the Davies surname were killed in pit disasters? Surprisingly few and even fewer within the relevant time period.

[erobitha]

And?
Do you know how many Davies & Thomas there were in Wales at that time?
And still.

About as many Mary Kellys in Ireland

[Chava]

I have established a marriage between William Davies and Mary Thomas in 1879 in Carmarthen. A William Davies died in the 1880 Risca colamine disaster.

And?
Do you know how many Davies & Thomas there were in Wales at that time?
And still.