'Johnto'

[MrBarnett]

Quite when Kelly left Pennington Street isn't clear, is it? If it coincided with the 2BSG’s arrival at the Tower that might support the idea that her brother was among them.

[MrBarnett]

The second Battalion returned from the Sudan with some fanfare in late 1885.
Perhaps Mary inserted a brother into that bloody glory.
Wikipedia has them deploying to Dublin in 1895.

Good for Wiki!

This is what I have:

1885

3 Jan: Wellington Barracks
13 Jan: Wellington Barracks
7 Feb: Wellington Barracks
21 Feb: Wellington Barracks
7 Mar: Sudan
12 Mar: Suakin (Sudan)
2 May: Sudan
6 June: Wellington Barracks
4 July: Cyprus
2 Aug: Cyprus
5 Sept: En route to England
3 Oct: Wellington Barracks

1886

2 Jan: Wellington Barracks
6 Feb: Wellington Barracks
8 May: Wellington Barracks
5 Jun: Wellington Barracks
7 Aug: Wellington Barracks
9 Oct: Tower
12 Oct: Tower


1887

1 Jan: Tower
5 Feb: Tower
2 Apr: Tower
2 July: Pirbright (Training)
6 Aug: Tower
(?) Sep: Tower to Chelsea


1888

Mar: Chelsea
Apr: Chelsea
May: Chelsea
May: Aldershot (Training)
June: Chelsea
July: Chelsea
Aug: Chelsea
Sept: Chelsea
Sept: Dublin
Oct: Chelsea(?)
Oct: Dublin
Nov: Dublin
Dec: Dublin
Dec: Curragh

[MrBarnett]

I would be inclined to say there is merit in your theory so de we discount Johnto as her brother all together because of the lack of a Henry?

No, I wouldn’t discount anything. The likelihood is that what has come down to us is a mixture of truth, exaggeration/downright lies and misremembering. But I can’t believe there isn’t at least a kernel of truth in there. The idea that a couple could live together for over a year and either the woman never told her partner a single fact about her past or he misheard everything she said just doesn’t wash.

[DJA]

The second Battalion returned from the Sudan with some fanfare in late 1885.
Perhaps Mary inserted a brother into that bloody glory.
Wikipedia has them deploying to Dublin in 1895.

[erobitha]

Yes, indeed!

But I toy with the idea that Kelly may have had a romantic interest in a soldier in the outfit, and perhaps that was why she kept abreast of their postings.

Hallie Rubenhold suggests something similar, but true to form she imagines Kelly having a relationship with an officer, where I think a private or at best an NCO is more likely to have sought his pleasure in the Ratcliffe Highway.

I would be inclined to say there is merit in your theory so de we discount Johnto as her brother all together because of the lack of a Henry?

[MrBarnett]

That must have been an awkward reunion

Yes, indeed!

But I toy with the idea that Kelly may have had a romantic interest in a soldier in the outfit, and perhaps that was why she kept abreast of their postings.

Hallie Rubenhold suggests something similar, but true to form she imagines Kelly having a relationship with an officer, where I think a private or at best an NCO is more likely to have sought his pleasure in the Ratcliffe Highway.

[Joshua Rogan]

For me the regiment and batallion info appears to be corroborated by Barnett’s statement that they were now in Ireland and by the fact that while Kelly was in Pennington Street the nearest army barracks was occupied by the 2BSG. The unit had only moved to Dublin in September., 1888. 79 Pennington Street would have been one of the closest brothels to the Tower barracks.

Two coincidences?

That must have been an awkward reunion

[MrBarnett]

I guess it's down to wheover is researching to weigh up the value. My belief is Mary embellished many elements of her life and often facts and fiction intertwined. Humans do not remember everything like a text book or a historical record. Sometimes, memories change and evolve as years pass and often get muddled with other memories. Humans are not as reliable as data. Nothing in the data suggests Henry is even a probable avenue, so what makes you think she had the exact name of the regiment and batallion he may or not have been in? She could have confused things.

For me the regiment and batallion info appears to be corroborated by Barnett’s statement that they were now in Ireland and by the fact that while Kelly was in Pennington Street the nearest army barracks was occupied by the 2BSG. The unit had only moved to Dublin in September., 1888. 79 Pennington Street would have been one of the closest brothels to the Tower barracks.

Two coincidences?

[erobitha]

Joe Barnett was very specific about ‘Johnto’s’ unit, the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, whose location (Dublin) he knew. What’s more, as I say, the 2BSG had been stationed a few minutes away from Pennington Street while Mary was there.

I’m not sure I see the value of looking for a man with a very common name in other regiments.

It seems very likely to me that Mary did know someone in the 2BSG, either her brother or someone she perhaps wanted Joe to believe was her brother.

I guess it's down to wheover is researching to weigh up the value. My belief is Mary embellished many elements of her life and often facts and fiction intertwined. Humans do not remember everything like a text book or a historical record. Sometimes, memories change and evolve as years pass and often get muddled with other memories. Humans are not as reliable as data. Nothing in the data suggests Henry is even a probable avenue, so what makes you think she had the exact name of the regiment and batallion he may or not have been in? She could have confused things.

[MrBarnett]

Is that right, Prosector? I wasn’t aware that the name Johnto had appeared in the press. Can you provide an example?

Of course, Barnett mentioned the name in his inquest testimony. But I’m not aware that it was used by any of the ‘Breezer’s Hill Mob’.

Incidentally, I’m not convinced that Kelly actually lived in Breezer’s Hill.

[MrBarnett]

John Thomas Snr was a labourer in Carmarthen census of 1871. There was an iron works and a tin plate works within walking distance of their address at that time.

John Thomas Jnr I believe was born in Merthyr Tydfill in 1862. The family appear on the 1881 census minus Mary in Merthyr Tydfill - guessing family links. Both listed as coal miners.

A John Thomas of the right age and birth year joined the Grenadier Guards in September 1886. He put his birth town down as Pontypridd. 12 miles south of Merthyr Tydfil. Could be purely coincidental. Iterestingly, the Royal Barracks in Dublin was home to the 3rd Batallion of the Grenadier Guards from 1867 - 1881, but pre-dates this John Thomas date of joining.

Joe Barnett was very specific about ‘Johnto’s’ unit, the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, whose location (Dublin) he knew. What’s more, as I say, the 2BSG had been stationed a few minutes away from Pennington Street while Mary was there.

I’m not sure I see the value of looking for a man with a very common name in other regiments.

It seems very likely to me that Mary did know someone in the 2BSG, either her brother or someone she perhaps wanted Joe to believe was her brother.

[MrBarnett]

After MJK's death several of the newspapers said that she had been visited soon after her arrival in the East End by her brother Johnto. That was apparently gleaned from talking to people who knew her in her Pennington Street and Breezer's Hill days. Perusal of the census and BMD records will show that Henry was a fairly uncommon first name in both Wales and Ireland in the 19th century, possibly because of its Royal connections - although Edward and John were very common. In my family which is solidly Welsh on both sides there are no Henrys as far back as I have been able to trace.

Is that right, Prosector? I wasn’t aware that the name Johnto had appeared in the press. Can you provide an example?

[Prosector]

After MJK's death several of the newspapers said that she had been visited soon after her arrival in the East End by her brother Johnto. That was apparently gleaned from talking to people who knew her in her Pennington Street and Breezer's Hill days. Perusal of the census and BMD records will show that Henry was a fairly uncommon first name in both Wales and Ireland in the 19th century, possibly because of its Royal connections - although Edward and John were very common. In my family which is solidly Welsh on both sides there are no Henrys as far back as I have been able to trace.

[erobitha]

Why do you ‘believe’ John Thomas was born in Merthyr? Do you have his birth certificate?

I know a John Thomas was born in Merthyr in 1862 with his mother's maiden name of Lloyd. But this is Wales. I just don't have access to to the birth certificate to see if it is the correct John Thomas and who his father was. However, I know they were living there in 1881 which gives it a strong chance it could well be the same.

[MrBarnett]

John Thomas Snr was a labourer in Carmarthen census of 1871. There was an iron works and a tin plate works within walking distance of their address at that time.

John Thomas Jnr I believe was born in Merthyr Tydfill in 1862. The family appear on the 1881 census minus Mary in Merthyr Tydfill - guessing family links. Both listed as coal miners.

A John Thomas of the right age and birth year joined the Grenadier Guards in September 1886. He put his birth town down as Pontypridd. 12 miles south of Merthyr Tydfil. Could be purely coincidental. Iterestingly, the Royal Barracks in Dublin was home to the 3rd Batallion of the Grenadier Guards from 1867 - 1881, but pre-dates this John Thomas date of joining.

Why do you ‘believe’ John Thomas was born in Merthyr? Do you have his birth certificate?