'Johnto'

[MrBarnett]

To narrow down the Henry’s in the Scots Guards around that time (some records do not confirm the battalion) I have found no Irish Henry’s, a few Welsh ones and there were a fair few English ones. Question is, which one would be the right Henry and why?

How about Henry McGroerty from Donegal who joined the SG in London in August, 1886?

[erobitha]

I was attempting to show that, in my view, Henry was known by his second name? (an assumption) by his comrades.
The context of Barnett's statement is 'family relations', which begins with: "The deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly"....etc. Then, he introduces Henry, who was also known as John, like the person previously named.
The whole paragraph concerns family members, not Henry's comrade's, that is a side-line note.
Barnett is only indicating Henry was known as John (like his father) in some small quarter's.

Trying to find a Henry Kelly (or John Kelly?) in the SBSG may be fruitless because the surname was not Kelly.
I suspect the victim adopted the name Mary Kelly, so the surname of her brother was probably not Kelly.

To narrow down the Henry’s in the Scots Guards around that time (some records do not confirm the battalion) I have found no Irish Henry’s, a few Welsh ones and there were a fair few English ones. Question is, which one would be the right Henry and why?

[Debra A]

Trying to find a Henry Kelly (or John Kelly?) in the SBSG may be fruitless because the surname was not Kelly.
I suspect the victim adopted the name Mary Kelly, so the surname of her brother was probably not Kelly.

I agree that's a real possibility. I found it interesting that near neighbour and friend Elizabeth Prater really had a sister named Mary Jane and a brother named Henry who was in uniform, albeit the navy. Maybe there was a bit of borrowing of back stories going on? Maybe Barnett's memory was at fault.

[Wickerman]

Thanks Jon.
I understand your family's experience and explanation but I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why Henry being known 'amongst his comrades ' should necessarily be connected to his family and being the son of someone named John, as in 'John too.' I can't imagine someone being nick named named 'John' because there was another Henry in the company....

I was attempting to show that, in my view, Henry was known by his second name? (an assumption) by his comrades.
The context of Barnett's statement is 'family relations', which begins with: "The deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly"....etc. Then, he introduces Henry, who was also known as John, like the person previously named.
The whole paragraph concerns family members, not Henry's comrade's, that is a side-line note.
Barnett is only indicating Henry was known as John (like his father) in some small quarter's.

Trying to find a Henry Kelly (or John Kelly?) in the SBSG may be fruitless because the surname was not Kelly.
I suspect the victim adopted the name Mary Kelly, so the surname of her brother was probably not Kelly.

[MrBarnett]

I think what really stands out from all this recent and very interesting discussion is that MJK, whether she really was MJK or someone else (including, possibly, Elizabeth Weston Craig), is that she did not want to be identified and took a lot of trouble to ensure that, including muddying the water by talking about her brother Henry being in the Scots Guards and being known to his comrades as Johnto. If she had really wanted Joe Barnett to know the truth she would have spelled it out less ambiguously. That in turn begs the question of why was she keeping her identity secret? The obvious reason is that she believed that someone bore her a grudge. It could have been a client who she might have short changed or a jealous lover which seems to narrow it down to Francis Craig (but only if she was his wife Elizabeth), Joe Barnett or Joseph Fleming (or Flemming or Evans) who seems to have been a bit neglected recently. And if she was deliberately spreading half truths about Henry/Johnto/Kelly/Davies, no amount of searching the records is likely to reveal the complete truth. I believe that the identity of MJK holds the key to the whole Ripper mystery. Her killing was so different to the others and so brutally targeted that I find it difficult to accept that it was the random work of a demented lunatic.

At the moment I’m viewing everything through the prism of Alice McKenzie. She had lived with John McCormack for 6/7 years, but he knew very little about her. He didn’t know her real name or whether she had ever been married - her maiden name was in fact Alice Pitts and she had married a carpenter named Joseph Kinsey in Leicester. He thought she’d had a son who was now living in America, when in fact it appears that her only child had died in infancy in Leicester shortly before her husband had died there.

That she had originally come from Peterborough and that her father had been a postman there was all he knew.

What was Alice hiding? A slightly chaotic early life, perhaps?

[Prosector]

I think what really stands out from all this recent and very interesting discussion is that MJK, whether she really was MJK or someone else (including, possibly, Elizabeth Weston Craig), is that she did not want to be identified and took a lot of trouble to ensure that, including muddying the water by talking about her brother Henry being in the Scots Guards and being known to his comrades as Johnto. If she had really wanted Joe Barnett to know the truth she would have spelled it out less ambiguously. That in turn begs the question of why was she keeping her identity secret? The obvious reason is that she believed that someone bore her a grudge. It could have been a client who she might have short changed or a jealous lover which seems to narrow it down to Francis Craig (but only if she was his wife Elizabeth), Joe Barnett or Joseph Fleming (or Flemming or Evans) who seems to have been a bit neglected recently. And if she was deliberately spreading half truths about Henry/Johnto/Kelly/Davies, no amount of searching the records is likely to reveal the complete truth. I believe that the identity of MJK holds the key to the whole Ripper mystery. Her killing was so different to the others and so brutally targeted that I find it difficult to accept that it was the random work of a demented lunatic.

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Jon.
I understand your family's experience and explanation but I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why Henry being known 'amongst his comrades ' should necessarily be connected to his family and being the son of someone named John, as in 'John too.' I can't imagine someone being nick named named 'John' because there was another Henry in the company.

Since Gary found that there was a well known pedestrian named Johnto around in the 80s and also there was a boxer, it has opened my mind up to the possibility that Henry may have earned the nickname by way of having a characteristic in common with a famous person of that name at the time. Perhaps Henry was involved in the sport of pedestrianism himself as it was popular in the forces, I once posted a photograph of Army pedestrian champion 86, 87, 88 J J Hartley, of the Royal Engineers. Or perhaps he hated walking and it was a sarcastically given name or maybe he had a peculiar walk!

Hi Debs,

I think Johnto the race walker went on to be a boxing trainer. The name was certainly in the sorting press in the 1870s.

Your suggestion makes perfect sense to me.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

I’ve added another famous Johnto to the list on this thread.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=408619#post408619

[Debra A]

Hi Debs.

My uncle was called Jack by everybody, yet only when he died in 1977 did I find out his real christian name was William.
His father - my grandfather, was a John Joseph, and the eldest son was William John, his brother - my father was Edward Leo.
Both sons went in the army but because there was another William in my uncle's squad, or company, or whatever they call it, he became known among his buddies as Jack, being the colloquial for John, which he wasn't too struck on.
So I see a close parallel here, my uncle was known as "John too, like his father", except he adopted the colloquial being Jack.
At home (his parents family) he was still William.

Thanks Jon.
I understand your family's experience and explanation but I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why Henry being known 'amongst his comrades ' should necessarily be connected to his family and being the son of someone named John, as in 'John too.' I can't imagine someone being nick named named 'John' because there was another Henry in the company.

Since Gary found that there was a well known pedestrian named Johnto around in the 80s and also there was a boxer, it has opened my mind up to the possibility that Henry may have earned the nickname by way of having a characteristic in common with a famous person of that name at the time. Perhaps Henry was involved in the sport of pedestrianism himself as it was popular in the forces, I once posted a photograph of Army pedestrian champion 86, 87, 88 J J Hartley, of the Royal Engineers. Or perhaps he hated walking and it was a sarcastically given name or maybe he had a peculiar walk!

[MrBarnett]

Imagine this, a young man named Peter whose father’s name was Leonard being known as ‘Pele’ by his mates in the army.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I also think context is very important and with that in mind- how do you explain Barnett's saying that Mary's brother was named Henry but 'known amongst his comrades as 'Johnto'. If it said known amongst his family as Johnto that would make more sense but this suggests an army nickname rather than a family one? Would there be any reason to have to differentiate between two Johns amongst his comrades? Also in the statement Johnto is clearly written as one word at the end of a line.

Debs

Hi Debs.

My uncle was called Jack by everybody, yet only when he died in 1977 did I find out his real christian name was William.
His father - my grandfather, was a John Joseph, and the eldest son was William John, his brother - my father was Edward Leo.
Both sons went in the army but because there was another William in my uncle's squad, or company, or whatever they call it, he became known among his buddies as Jack, being the colloquial for John, which he wasn't too struck on.
So I see a close parallel here, my uncle was known as "John too, like his father", except he adopted the colloquial being Jack.
At home (his parents family) he was still William.

[erobitha]

Henry LLoyd (born Newtown 1870)

This seems to be JOHN HENRY LLOYD who was actually born in 1868 in Llandinam - not 1870. If it is the same, by some quirk of coincidence he married a Mary Jane (in this case Evans). Spooky.

[Debra A]

And that is precisely the context where 'Johnto' is used.
Context is everything, when people isolate a name out of context they will end up venturing down numerous rabbit holes in search of a meaning.

Kelly's father was named John, her brother was known as "John too".
Lots of people today don't use a second 'o' ("to" instead of "too"), it is extremely common.
What is more, Abberline was known to string his words together.

Hi Jon,

I also think context is very important and with that in mind- how do you explain Barnett's saying that Mary's brother was named Henry but 'known amongst his comrades as 'Johnto'. If it said known amongst his family as Johnto that would make more sense but this suggests an army nickname rather than a family one? Would there be any reason to have to differentiate between two Johns amongst his comrades? Also in the statement Johnto is clearly written as one word at the end of a line.

Debs

[erobitha]

It seems to me many researchers on this are concluding that the person Barnett references as Henry was most likely not a Henry. No Henry I can see was in the Scots Guards of that time l. Henry was not a common Welsh or Irish name at that time. So if that is all true, why did she give him that name or is Barnett confused? Was MJK trying to protect someone? Or even more intriguing was Barnett being deliberately misleading? Unless a Henry magically appears in the records of the Scots Guards at some point I personally am happy to class Henry as a Red Herring.

So, who was Johnto if he wasn’t Henry?

Just to qualify the above I meant there was no Henry Kellys in the Scots Guards of that time. A few Welsh Henry's do come up:

Henry LLoyd (born Newtown 1870)
Henry Morris (born Newtown 1858)
William Henry Davies (born Newtown 1869)
Henry Thomas (born Cardiff 1856)
John Henry Simon (born Ruthin 1864)

[erobitha]

It seems to me many researchers on this are concluding that the person Barnett references as Henry was most likely not a Henry. No Henry I can see was in the Scots Guards of that time l. Henry was not a common Welsh or Irish name at that time. So if that is all true, why did she give him that name or is Barnett confused? Was MJK trying to protect someone? Or even more intriguing was Barnett being deliberately misleading? Unless a Henry magically appears in the records of the Scots Guards at some point I personally am happy to class Henry as a Red Herring.

So, who was Johnto if he wasn’t Henry?