'Johnto'

[MrBarnett]

The point about Abberline's note is that the brother's name was Henry, not John.

And wasn’t ‘Johnto’ the nickname used by Henry’s comrades in the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, who were, just as Barnett said, in Dublin at the time he made his statement?

Also, we shouldn’t forget there was a minor sporting celebrity who used the nickname ‘Johnto’ in the 1870s.

[MrBarnett]

And wasn’t ‘Johnto’ the nickname used by Henry’s comrades in the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, who were, just as Barnett said, in Dublin at the time he made his statement?

Also, we shouldn’t forget there was a minor sporting celebrity who used the nickname ‘Johnto’ in the 1870s.

I should add that the 2nd Btn SG had been stationed at the Tower, a few minutes walk from Pennington Street while MJK was apparently there.

[erobitha]

I think anyone who harbours ambitions that every piece of detail MJK supplied others is 100% accurate will be sorely disappointed. Some details will have been embellished at the very least. Not every detail out there will fit neatly and nicely but just how close can we get to as much of it as possible?

If you were to grade the potential candidates being discussed as being MJK I am convinced my Mary Thomas would be in the mix.

[erobitha]

I should add that the 2nd Btn SG had been stationed at the Tower, a few minutes walk from Pennington Street while MJK was apparently there.

As you I’m sure you know, there is no service record for a Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards. The John Thomas’s also do not fit.

[Wickerman]

And wasn’t ‘Johnto’ the nickname used by Henry’s comrades in the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, who were, just as Barnett said, in Dublin at the time he made his statement?

Also, we shouldn’t forget there was a minor sporting celebrity who used the nickname ‘Johnto’ in the 1870s.

Thats not specifically, what Abberline wrote.
This debate concern's what Henry's comrade's knew him as; Johnto, or John, like his father (ie; John too). As the latter fits the context of what Abberline wrote.

Why would you give the name "Johnto", to someone called Henry?
Whereas, this same Henry may have preferred to be known by the same name as his father - John. Which is a very common occurrence.
What we don't know of course is, if Henry's second name was John, also very common to have a second name after your own father.

It's the context which I believe is all important, we only get that when we read the complete paragraph.

[erobitha]

John Thomas Snr was a labourer in Carmarthen census of 1871. There was an iron works and a tin plate works within walking distance of their address at that time.

John Thomas Jnr I believe was born in Merthyr Tydfill in 1862. The family appear on the 1881 census minus Mary in Merthyr Tydfill - guessing family links. Both listed as coal miners.

A John Thomas of the right age and birth year joined the Grenadier Guards in September 1886. He put his birth town down as Pontypridd. 12 miles south of Merthyr Tydfil. Could be purely coincidental. Iterestingly, the Royal Barracks in Dublin was home to the 3rd Batallion of the Grenadier Guards from 1867 - 1881, but pre-dates this John Thomas date of joining.

[MrBarnett]

John Thomas Snr was a labourer in Carmarthen census of 1871. There was an iron works and a tin plate works within walking distance of their address at that time.

John Thomas Jnr I believe was born in Merthyr Tydfill in 1862. The family appear on the 1881 census minus Mary in Merthyr Tydfill - guessing family links. Both listed as coal miners.

A John Thomas of the right age and birth year joined the Grenadier Guards in September 1886. He put his birth town down as Pontypridd. 12 miles south of Merthyr Tydfil. Could be purely coincidental. Iterestingly, the Royal Barracks in Dublin was home to the 3rd Batallion of the Grenadier Guards from 1867 - 1881, but pre-dates this John Thomas date of joining.

Why do you ‘believe’ John Thomas was born in Merthyr? Do you have his birth certificate?

[erobitha]

Why do you ‘believe’ John Thomas was born in Merthyr? Do you have his birth certificate?

I know a John Thomas was born in Merthyr in 1862 with his mother's maiden name of Lloyd. But this is Wales. I just don't have access to to the birth certificate to see if it is the correct John Thomas and who his father was. However, I know they were living there in 1881 which gives it a strong chance it could well be the same.

[Prosector]

After MJK's death several of the newspapers said that she had been visited soon after her arrival in the East End by her brother Johnto. That was apparently gleaned from talking to people who knew her in her Pennington Street and Breezer's Hill days. Perusal of the census and BMD records will show that Henry was a fairly uncommon first name in both Wales and Ireland in the 19th century, possibly because of its Royal connections - although Edward and John were very common. In my family which is solidly Welsh on both sides there are no Henrys as far back as I have been able to trace.

[MrBarnett]

After MJK's death several of the newspapers said that she had been visited soon after her arrival in the East End by her brother Johnto. That was apparently gleaned from talking to people who knew her in her Pennington Street and Breezer's Hill days. Perusal of the census and BMD records will show that Henry was a fairly uncommon first name in both Wales and Ireland in the 19th century, possibly because of its Royal connections - although Edward and John were very common. In my family which is solidly Welsh on both sides there are no Henrys as far back as I have been able to trace.

Is that right, Prosector? I wasn’t aware that the name Johnto had appeared in the press. Can you provide an example?

[MrBarnett]

John Thomas Snr was a labourer in Carmarthen census of 1871. There was an iron works and a tin plate works within walking distance of their address at that time.

John Thomas Jnr I believe was born in Merthyr Tydfill in 1862. The family appear on the 1881 census minus Mary in Merthyr Tydfill - guessing family links. Both listed as coal miners.

A John Thomas of the right age and birth year joined the Grenadier Guards in September 1886. He put his birth town down as Pontypridd. 12 miles south of Merthyr Tydfil. Could be purely coincidental. Iterestingly, the Royal Barracks in Dublin was home to the 3rd Batallion of the Grenadier Guards from 1867 - 1881, but pre-dates this John Thomas date of joining.

Joe Barnett was very specific about ‘Johnto’s’ unit, the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, whose location (Dublin) he knew. What’s more, as I say, the 2BSG had been stationed a few minutes away from Pennington Street while Mary was there.

I’m not sure I see the value of looking for a man with a very common name in other regiments.

It seems very likely to me that Mary did know someone in the 2BSG, either her brother or someone she perhaps wanted Joe to believe was her brother.

[MrBarnett]

Is that right, Prosector? I wasn’t aware that the name Johnto had appeared in the press. Can you provide an example?

Of course, Barnett mentioned the name in his inquest testimony. But I’m not aware that it was used by any of the ‘Breezer’s Hill Mob’.

Incidentally, I’m not convinced that Kelly actually lived in Breezer’s Hill.

[erobitha]

Joe Barnett was very specific about ‘Johnto’s’ unit, the 2nd Btn Scots Guards, whose location (Dublin) he knew. What’s more, as I say, the 2BSG had been stationed a few minutes away from Pennington Street while Mary was there.

I’m not sure I see the value of looking for a man with a very common name in other regiments.

It seems very likely to me that Mary did know someone in the 2BSG, either her brother or someone she perhaps wanted Joe to believe was her brother.

I guess it's down to wheover is researching to weigh up the value. My belief is Mary embellished many elements of her life and often facts and fiction intertwined. Humans do not remember everything like a text book or a historical record. Sometimes, memories change and evolve as years pass and often get muddled with other memories. Humans are not as reliable as data. Nothing in the data suggests Henry is even a probable avenue, so what makes you think she had the exact name of the regiment and batallion he may or not have been in? She could have confused things.

[MrBarnett]

I guess it's down to wheover is researching to weigh up the value. My belief is Mary embellished many elements of her life and often facts and fiction intertwined. Humans do not remember everything like a text book or a historical record. Sometimes, memories change and evolve as years pass and often get muddled with other memories. Humans are not as reliable as data. Nothing in the data suggests Henry is even a probable avenue, so what makes you think she had the exact name of the regiment and batallion he may or not have been in? She could have confused things.

For me the regiment and batallion info appears to be corroborated by Barnett’s statement that they were now in Ireland and by the fact that while Kelly was in Pennington Street the nearest army barracks was occupied by the 2BSG. The unit had only moved to Dublin in September., 1888. 79 Pennington Street would have been one of the closest brothels to the Tower barracks.

Two coincidences?

[Joshua Rogan]

For me the regiment and batallion info appears to be corroborated by Barnett’s statement that they were now in Ireland and by the fact that while Kelly was in Pennington Street the nearest army barracks was occupied by the 2BSG. The unit had only moved to Dublin in September., 1888. 79 Pennington Street would have been one of the closest brothels to the Tower barracks.

Two coincidences?

That must have been an awkward reunion