'Johnto'

[erobitha]

I've long suspected the two to be linked.

Locating the gay house would answer some interesting questions.

I assume by this there is doubt over the accuracy of Collingham Place in Kensington being the 'gay house'?

[DJA]

That Maundrell property is certainly in the running.

[Prosector]

You may be right Mr Barnett, I apologise. g I thought that at least one of the papers had mentioned Johnto visiting MJK in Pennington Street but I haven't had time to go through all my files yet. However, several do mention her being visited by her brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards without using the name Johnto. Mostly these are quoting Joe Barnett's evidence at the inquest, including the 5th Edition of the Star of 12th November. Interestingly this initially names him as James Barnet but later names him as Joseph Barnett. The Penny Illustrated Paper of 17th November appears to be quoting directly from local witnesses rather than from the inquest testimony when it mentions her being visited by her brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards. I'll keep combing my files and update if I find anything different.

Prosector

[DJA]

By memory Mary was visited by a middle aged man whom she avoided by moving.

It was surmised to be her father.

In my universe he was dead and it was likely to have been "my Jack".

[Wickerman]

The reference to Kelly being visited by her brother, and looked for by her father, can both be attributed to Barnett, in the Star, 12th Nov. However, both incidents may have happened while Kelly lived in Pennington street as Barnett also says he never met any of her brothers.

[DJA]

Definitely.

[erobitha]

It seems to me many researchers on this are concluding that the person Barnett references as Henry was most likely not a Henry. No Henry I can see was in the Scots Guards of that time l. Henry was not a common Welsh or Irish name at that time. So if that is all true, why did she give him that name or is Barnett confused? Was MJK trying to protect someone? Or even more intriguing was Barnett being deliberately misleading? Unless a Henry magically appears in the records of the Scots Guards at some point I personally am happy to class Henry as a Red Herring.

So, who was Johnto if he wasn’t Henry?

[erobitha]

It seems to me many researchers on this are concluding that the person Barnett references as Henry was most likely not a Henry. No Henry I can see was in the Scots Guards of that time l. Henry was not a common Welsh or Irish name at that time. So if that is all true, why did she give him that name or is Barnett confused? Was MJK trying to protect someone? Or even more intriguing was Barnett being deliberately misleading? Unless a Henry magically appears in the records of the Scots Guards at some point I personally am happy to class Henry as a Red Herring.

So, who was Johnto if he wasn’t Henry?

Just to qualify the above I meant there was no Henry Kellys in the Scots Guards of that time. A few Welsh Henry's do come up:

Henry LLoyd (born Newtown 1870)
Henry Morris (born Newtown 1858)
William Henry Davies (born Newtown 1869)
Henry Thomas (born Cardiff 1856)
John Henry Simon (born Ruthin 1864)

[Debra A]

And that is precisely the context where 'Johnto' is used.
Context is everything, when people isolate a name out of context they will end up venturing down numerous rabbit holes in search of a meaning.

Kelly's father was named John, her brother was known as "John too".
Lots of people today don't use a second 'o' ("to" instead of "too"), it is extremely common.
What is more, Abberline was known to string his words together.

Hi Jon,

I also think context is very important and with that in mind- how do you explain Barnett's saying that Mary's brother was named Henry but 'known amongst his comrades as 'Johnto'. If it said known amongst his family as Johnto that would make more sense but this suggests an army nickname rather than a family one? Would there be any reason to have to differentiate between two Johns amongst his comrades? Also in the statement Johnto is clearly written as one word at the end of a line.

Debs

[erobitha]

Henry LLoyd (born Newtown 1870)

This seems to be JOHN HENRY LLOYD who was actually born in 1868 in Llandinam - not 1870. If it is the same, by some quirk of coincidence he married a Mary Jane (in this case Evans). Spooky.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I also think context is very important and with that in mind- how do you explain Barnett's saying that Mary's brother was named Henry but 'known amongst his comrades as 'Johnto'. If it said known amongst his family as Johnto that would make more sense but this suggests an army nickname rather than a family one? Would there be any reason to have to differentiate between two Johns amongst his comrades? Also in the statement Johnto is clearly written as one word at the end of a line.

Debs

Hi Debs.

My uncle was called Jack by everybody, yet only when he died in 1977 did I find out his real christian name was William.
His father - my grandfather, was a John Joseph, and the eldest son was William John, his brother - my father was Edward Leo.
Both sons went in the army but because there was another William in my uncle's squad, or company, or whatever they call it, he became known among his buddies as Jack, being the colloquial for John, which he wasn't too struck on.
So I see a close parallel here, my uncle was known as "John too, like his father", except he adopted the colloquial being Jack.
At home (his parents family) he was still William.

[MrBarnett]

Imagine this, a young man named Peter whose father’s name was Leonard being known as ‘Pele’ by his mates in the army.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs.

My uncle was called Jack by everybody, yet only when he died in 1977 did I find out his real christian name was William.
His father - my grandfather, was a John Joseph, and the eldest son was William John, his brother - my father was Edward Leo.
Both sons went in the army but because there was another William in my uncle's squad, or company, or whatever they call it, he became known among his buddies as Jack, being the colloquial for John, which he wasn't too struck on.
So I see a close parallel here, my uncle was known as "John too, like his father", except he adopted the colloquial being Jack.
At home (his parents family) he was still William.

Thanks Jon.
I understand your family's experience and explanation but I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why Henry being known 'amongst his comrades ' should necessarily be connected to his family and being the son of someone named John, as in 'John too.' I can't imagine someone being nick named named 'John' because there was another Henry in the company.

Since Gary found that there was a well known pedestrian named Johnto around in the 80s and also there was a boxer, it has opened my mind up to the possibility that Henry may have earned the nickname by way of having a characteristic in common with a famous person of that name at the time. Perhaps Henry was involved in the sport of pedestrianism himself as it was popular in the forces, I once posted a photograph of Army pedestrian champion 86, 87, 88 J J Hartley, of the Royal Engineers. Or perhaps he hated walking and it was a sarcastically given name or maybe he had a peculiar walk!

[MrBarnett]

I’ve added another famous Johnto to the list on this thread.

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=408619#post408619

[MrBarnett]

Thanks Jon.
I understand your family's experience and explanation but I guess I'm finding it difficult to understand why Henry being known 'amongst his comrades ' should necessarily be connected to his family and being the son of someone named John, as in 'John too.' I can't imagine someone being nick named named 'John' because there was another Henry in the company.

Since Gary found that there was a well known pedestrian named Johnto around in the 80s and also there was a boxer, it has opened my mind up to the possibility that Henry may have earned the nickname by way of having a characteristic in common with a famous person of that name at the time. Perhaps Henry was involved in the sport of pedestrianism himself as it was popular in the forces, I once posted a photograph of Army pedestrian champion 86, 87, 88 J J Hartley, of the Royal Engineers. Or perhaps he hated walking and it was a sarcastically given name or maybe he had a peculiar walk!

Hi Debs,

I think Johnto the race walker went on to be a boxing trainer. The name was certainly in the sorting press in the 1870s.

Your suggestion makes perfect sense to me.

Gary