Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. That story has always sounded suspicious to me. "I did not like such a luxurious situation so I opted for misery." Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

Possibly you are not alone, I have typically dismissed it as an odd story to spread about.

"Oh yes, ladies, I lived the highlife too, but I didn't like it!" (sure Mary, sure, nudge, nudge)

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Hello Jon.

"so how could Barnett know so many familial details about a woman he never met?"

Perhaps it would be interesting to list them. Sometimes they seem somewhat fewer in a list.

Cheers.
LC

C'mon Lynn, take a dash more water with it

I listed them in post 429.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249159&postcount=429

Here's a more precise breakdown.
An imposter must select a:

1) - Kelly family, and pose as a

2) - daughter who..

3) - was born in 1864 +/- 2 yrs?

4) - was born in Ireland.

5) - moved to Wales.....

6) - .....before 1880 +/- 2 yrs?

7) - has seven brothers.

8) - has one sister.


Ok, Lynn, if eight coincidences are not extraordinary enough, how many would you accept?

And, anyone else can help out here, how many Kelly families fit this same criteria in the census records?

I think it is astonishing.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

funny story

Hello Jon. That story has always sounded suspicious to me. "I did not like such a luxurious situation so I opted for misery." Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

choice

Hello Velma. Thanks. Perhaps John Hubert or Hubert John? Of course, John seems the easier choice.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

list

Hello Jon.

"so how could Barnett know so many familial details about a woman he never met?"

Perhaps it would be interesting to list them. Sometimes they seem somewhat fewer in a list.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

first draft

Hello Mike. Thanks.

OK. Look forward to removing the rough edges.

Same wishes to you.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

class conflict

Hello Richard. Thanks.

Upper class colliers?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Provisionally, working with one story MJK shared with Barnet.

This is the radical descent, almost suggestive of an attempt to disappear from someone?:

What did she do when she came to London? - She lived in a house at the West-end - a gay house - with a madam.

How long did she live there? - As far as she described it to me, a few weeks.
Then some gentleman asked her to go to France, and she went, but, as she described it to me, she didn't like it, and came back in about a week or two's time.

Did she tell you the name of the place in France? - She told me, but she did not remain long, as she did not like it.

Did she live in France long? - No, about a fortnight.

When she returned from France where did she tell you she lived? - In the Ratcliff-highway.


The story she describes appears to have her fall from the high life to the bottom of the barrel in two weeks?
So perhaps this Gentleman was not too pleased with her?

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

Thinking about it you're right...I'm David Charles White, but within my own family (to distinguish me from my father, David Edwin) I was always known as Charlie...

Nice one!

Dave

[curious]

Hello Jon. Thanks. That helps.

So, where does that leave us? "MJK" took over Brymbo's bio and passed herself under that name. Let's accept that for a moment. After all, the story coincides with respect to geography and siblings.

I can also accept minor deletions and embellishments.

But one problem seems to occur--why not call your "father" "Hubert" and not "John"?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Just weighing in on this: what if Mary Brymbo's father was called John in the family but his official name was Hubert?

My father was Kennie Carl and always called Carl inside the family. At work and in official records, he was "Kennie C."

Another family line has a long line of John as the first name, but the men were all known by their middle names. For example John Jacob went by Jake, John Wesley went by Wes, and John Claude went by Claude.

A young woman assuming the name of someone she knew might not even have been aware of the father's official name, knowing him only by the called name.

curious

[Cogidubnus]

Thought-provoking post Rivkah...thanks

All the best

Dave

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Lynn,
It was reported that Mary's family were somewhat well off, indeed her brother allegedly was concerned, that future army prospects may be endangered , suggesting possible promotion .
I would suggest that if Mary originated from a better class, then her true identity may well have been withheld.
The ''mums the word'' theory has long been associated with JTR, right from the outset, secrecy is not dismissed..
Regards Richard.

Seriously? The Scots' Guards cared that he had a sister way over in the East End of London who had, umm, fallen from grace? How would they even know that? Honestly, I've been in the military, and so has my husband, who even served in Iraq. The military in 2012, when information is very easy to get, doesn't bother to keep files on people's siblings, except for maybe a handful of people in very high security positions.

On another topic, what kind of informants did the police use? I'm having trouble picturing MJK as some kind of undercover agent, or someone with political motives. However, I could see her as someone who might exchange things she happened to overhear for either money or not being arrested. I don't know what the legal status of prostitution was-- it seems to have gone on right under the noses of the beat cops, but I'm guessing they just had bigger fish to fry, rather than that it was legal.

I'm not thinking she would have had useful information on high crimes, but there was probably a lot of petty thievery in a poor section of town. Maybe places where AWOL sailors hid out. Who knows?

I also doubt that she would have run into much trouble over political activity, but I do wonder if prostitutes ever had trouble with stalkers? I really don't know; I'm just speculating that if she ever did change her name to run away for her safety, it would be more likely to be from a former client who was stalking her, than from political enemies.

[Wickerman]

Hello all,

To address some points made, ....Jon, you seem to be on the verge of assuming that Mary Kelly likely used someone elses name and bio.....then you suggest her father comes looking for her as Mary Jane Kelly. Why would he know who she was pretending to be? And why would she create a story about a marriage and the death of her husband if she was using this brymbo Marys bio anyway? Seems to me if youre going to assume an identity with a history it will be either all made up hogwash or based on an actual persons history. You're looking for snippets of truth within what appears to be whole cloth fabrication.

It can hardly be denied that the most successful lies/charades/disguises always contain an element of truth.
Why worry about the 'father' story at this point? Compared with what we know about the only Mary Kelly who largely fits the bio claimed by Barnett for MJK, there are more important issues to deal with.

Brymbo-Mary was obviously not Barnett's lover, so how could Barnett know so many familial details about a woman he never met?

Its a question worthy of an answer.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello all,

To address some points made, ....Jon, you seem to be on the verge of assuming that Mary Kelly likely used someone elses name and bio.....then you suggest her father comes looking for her as Mary Jane Kelly. Why would he know who she was pretending to be? And why would she create a story about a marriage and the death of her husband if she was using this brymbo Marys bio anyway? Seems to me if youre going to assume an identity with a history it will be either all made up hogwash or based on an actual persons history. You're looking for snippets of truth within what appears to be whole cloth fabrication.

Lynn, the bit about Kate.....there are only a few people to my mind that she could have been using information about Mary Kelly to bargain with....either the people who it would seem bought her drinks her last afternoon or the people who incarcerated her. Either party knew she was in a city jail, and if they knew the city law, then they knew she would be released that night. Unlike the Met regulations. I think based on that assumption, it would likely be the people she drank with that afternoon. People who were looking for Mary Kelly because of something she knew.

You asked about an overarching storyline...perhaps Mary Kelly worked as an informant to the Police, and maybe, consecutively,... for an arm of the Irish self rule factions. Perhaps she posed as a wife or girlfriend of one of the self rule folks in Paris a few years earlier. Perhaps she left because she discovered that the people she was with and were meeting were planning bombings. Perhaps instead of notifying the authorities, she fled out of fear, invented a name and identity....perhaps of someone she knew,..and she slipped up by trusting another person with that information. Perhaps the Irish anarchists are looking for her to protect themselves. Perhaps Kate learned of this story. Perhaps Kate believed that the Irish self rule people were responsible for the Ripper killings as terrorists acts....that in her mind justifies threatening to sell this Mary's whereabouts to the police,...so they can get to her and the information she possess.

Kate lets it be known on the streets that she knows where this Mary is, and she is willing to sell that to the Irish if they will pay more than the Police for that info. A meeting is arranged...she gets tanked and says too much....a followup meeting and payment amount are also discussed, later that same night around midnight. They have decided that after she tells them where Mary is they intend to off her. Fly in the ointment...she is so drunk she gets picked up after they leave the pub she gets plunked in jail. No issues though. She will be released later that same night based on City guidelines. The man meeting her is told to hang about until she arrives and then bring her into the square. When she arrives she doesnt see her liason waiting....after a few minutes he shows up and she places a hand on his chest, relieved..."I thought Id missed you".

Ill work on a more cohesive storyline...but I believe the truth will read something like this Lynn. Merry Christmas mate!!

[richardnunweek]

Hi Lynn,
It was reported that Mary's family were somewhat well off, indeed her brother allegedly was concerned, that future army prospects may be endangered , suggesting possible promotion .
I would suggest that if Mary originated from a better class, then her true identity may well have been withheld.
The ''mums the word'' theory has long been associated with JTR, right from the outset, secrecy is not dismissed..
Regards Richard.