Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[DRoy]

Busy Beaver,

Welcome to the boards!

If the mutilated victim was MJK, did she go out after her 0.200am pick-up and was on the streets at approx 0.2.45am looking for someone else only dressed in her underclothes with a coat over top? That could explain why her clothes were folded up on the bed. The boots- were they left by Maria Harvey? Would MJK have owned two pairs of boots? (probably not brand new of course).

Interesting thought. I doubt the boots were Harvey's as she would have most likely mentioned them when she mentioned the clothes she did leave behind.

Also did the murderer lift the victim's body on to the bed? I have always thought that JTR attacked from behind and his victim was in front, therefore he could pull his victims throat/neck back and using his free hand slice the throat, then pulled the body down by the shoulders and let them drop to the ground before carrying out the mutilations.

I don't think she was lifted as there was a pool of blood in the top corner of the bed where her head would lay. You should look under the forum Motive, Method & Madness under thread "Left or Right Handed. The last entry by Jon (Wickerman) is an interesting theory that I've yet to hear before but might interest you.

Cheers
DRoy

[Busy Beaver]

If the mutilated victim was MJK, did she go out after her 0.200am pick-up and was on the streets at approx 0.2.45am looking for someone else only dressed in her underclothes with a coat over top? That could explain why her clothes were folded up on the bed. The boots- were they left by Maria Harvey? Would MJK have owned two pairs of boots? (probably not brand new of course).

Also did the murderer lift the victim's body on to the bed? I have always thought that JTR attacked from behind and his victim was in front, therefore he could pull his victims throat/neck back and using his free hand slice the throat, then pulled the body down by the shoulders and let them drop to the ground before carrying out the mutilations. With MJK I assume she went into the room first, just enough to get the door closed, JTR struck, but because of the small area and the door, was the body put on the bed to carry out the better mutilations that the murderer was possibly desperate to achieve? If her body was by the door, there would have been hardly any room for JTR's quick escape. and finding her her on the bed was maybe like the cherry on the cake in his distorted mind.

Busy Beaver

[RavenDarkendale]

Over the course of this discussion (which drew interest beyond my wildest dreams!) the pros and cons, the possibilities and probabilities, the case for mistaken TOD and the case for mistaken identity, (both alive and dead), and if this was JtR or someone else's kill have been discussed with respect and a minimum of infighting.

Thanks to all for a wonderful trading of ideas and hypotheses! God bless you all!

Darkendale

[Wickerman]

By the way, has anyone checked the records of the Cardiganshire and Monmouthshire Infirmary? That would be the name until it was changed to the Cardiff Infirmary in 1911 I think. If she was in there, there would be a record of her. Even if she's not going by Mary Jane Kelly, there would only be so many young girls in there at the appropriate time and they would be checkable.

I think if she was in any institution in Cardiff at that time it would be more likely to be the workhouse. I've got the 1881 census of inhabitants there and I don't see any likely candidates but some enterprising person might check the records there as well.

Hi Chava.

Have you read through these threads?

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6570

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6697

[Chava]

By the way, has anyone checked the records of the Cardiganshire and Monmouthshire Infirmary? That would be the name until it was changed to the Cardiff Infirmary in 1911 I think. If she was in there, there would be a record of her. Even if she's not going by Mary Jane Kelly, there would only be so many young girls in there at the appropriate time and they would be checkable.

I think if she was in any institution in Cardiff at that time it would be more likely to be the workhouse. I've got the 1881 census of inhabitants there and I don't see any likely candidates but some enterprising person might check the records there as well.

[lynn cates]

let the record show . . .

Hello Miss Marple. Thanks.

Sorry to have conveyed the impression that I were referring to criminal records. I meant birth, etc.

"She may have records, pre Whitechapel under another name."

Indeed. And that's what I'm on about.

Cheers.
LC

[miss marple]

Oh dear. Lynn did I miss Mary's stint in the button factory, or when she worked as a housemaid? Even Liz Stride who had records as a prostitute in Sweden and had been treated for VD in Sweden was working as a cleaner in Whitechapel.
If she was'nt a small time whore what was she? She would only have records if she was arrested for being drunk and disorderly[ As Liz Stride was]The ladies of Whitechapel seemed to be untroubled by the local plods unless they were drunk or causing an affrai. Mary could have be described as a prostitute if she had Syphilis and was admitted to The Whitechapel Infirmary as another Mary Kelly was. No woman would call herself a prostitute on official documents unless described so by others.

She may not have had records, perhaps she was very lucky or circumspect in not getting arrested,but none of her friends or her lover Barnett had tried to hide her occupation. An although only hearsay, she certainly created a drama out of her fall from grace.

She may have records, pre Whitechapel under another name. or perhaps she is hiding in plain sight and has not been noticed.

Miss Marple

[RavenDarkendale]

@ Miss Marple

Eyewitness testimony is notoriously unreliable, true. But you point out the undigested food in her stomach as evidence that TOD wasn't that far off. So she certainly could have been seen by the witnesses at the time and place they said, which would make the body unlikely to be MJK.

As for the pub sighting. Walk into almost any pub, bar, or nightclub and just look around. People are far to busy with drinking, flirting, and nursing various problems to paid a great deal of attention to who is there or not. Countless times people have given a pub setting as an alibi, knowing this will be difficult to disprove. A friend sees them there at say 10:00 and again at 12:00. No reason they couldn't have left the pub and came back.

Say MJK was seen by the witness drinking. All she has to do now is walk out and vanish. Almost certainly no one would pay attention. I don't recall anyone verifying that Lewis was even in the pub. So Lewis could be correct and MJK left close to the same time Lewis left.

I found this illuminating, from the MJK article right here on casebook

10:00 AM: Maurice Lewis, a tailor who resided in Dorset Street, told newspapers he had seen Kelly and Barnett in the Horn of Plenty public house on the night of the murder, but more importantly, that he saw her about 10:00 AM the next day. Like Maxwell, this time is several hours from the time of death, and because of this discrepancy, he was not called to the inquest and virtually ignored by police.

How nice. What doesn't suit the official story is dismissed. Typical.

[lynn cates]

records

Hello Miss Marple.

"she was a small time whore"

In which case it should be relatively easy to access some of her personal records. Haven't seen them lying about per chance?

Cheers.
LC

[miss marple]

If Maxwell and Lewis were correct, then Mary Kelly would have been in the Brittania after 10 'o clock am with others, according to Lewis.
Forensics aside [ I find it possible to believe the doctors got the timings so far wrong and there is the partially digested food which does not fit in with a later death] but just going on witness evidence. It would have been easy to establish that MK had been in the Brittania that morning, getting the hair of the dog after throwing up.She would have been seen by barstaff, talked to and mingled other friends and acquaintances. She was very known in the area and often in the Brittania.
But surprise, surprise no one saw her in the pub that morning, after the Lewis sighting. No one saw her go back into the court, no one saw her with a man, no one saw her in Dorset st.
If Lewis was correct more people would have seen her, and if she was alive she would have turned up. In spite of all the conspiracy theories, she was a small time whore who got stroppy when drunk, she lived off men. She was not from a noble family , a spy, a murderer etc she had no reason to flit, McCarthy had not pressured her for the rent, she would have picked up punters easily enough, maybe another Joe in fact after Joen left she seemed to relish going on the streets again. She was just a very unlucky woman
There is no reason to think another body was in her room.

The witness evidence of Maxwell and Lewis continues to muddy the waters, wrong day, wrong woman who knows? I think all the other evidence, forensic, timescale, witnesses etc is more valid than the sightings of Maxwell and Lewis.

Miss Marple

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I particularly noted this within the pdf:

A recurring problem in forensic medicine is the need to fix the time of death within the limits of probability. It is self-evident that the longer the interval of time between death and the examination of the body, the wider will be the limits of probability.

It would have been invaluable if the police had gained access to the room much earlier than they did.

Regards, Bridewell.

Quite right Colin, the police were having to weigh the consequences of waiting like they did. I'm sure the doctors knew how necessary it was to have access to the body but in gaining immediate access they may destroy any chance of catching the killer.
What was more important, being able to provide a more accurate time of death or, catching the killer?

At the time, Phillips would not know in advance that they would be unable to estimate her time of death, but likewise he would also not know that the dogs would not show up.

All with the best intentions...

Regards, Jon S.

[Chava]

Thanks Lynn!

In any case it doesn't sound like anyone all of a sudden went missing. Either MJK's past caught up with her--which I don't think is the case. Or MJK was the 5th victim of the Ripper--which I do think was the case. Whatever her real name was, the poor woman died.

[lynn cates]

Venteney

Hello Chava. Here is the record for Venteney (only one on Ancestry). Looks like the photographer, Antonio, is her father--not husband. That might explain why Chris had some trouble finding it.

Cheers.
LC

[DRoy]

Hi Michael,

No I actually found it in a New York paper. I'll have to try to track down the paper and the date. It was a large article so I didn't post the full thing but if I recall correctly I believe it was a NY Reporter, assistant, and a sketch artist.

Cheers
DRoy

[lynn cates]

research

Hello Chava. Thanks. Try here, post #4.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1193&highlight=venturney

Cheers.
LC