Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[lynn cates]

Look what turned up.

Hello Jon. Thanks.

That is how I feel about the descriptions of Millen and McDermott turning up.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Could you live with Barnet concocting the stories for "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC

Regardless who spread it about, my question is, where did the information come from.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

also-

Jon, just a quickie concerning coincidence #8. Brymbo Mary had two sisters-Bridget b c 1859 and Elizabeth b c 1870.

Thanks Debs.
Yes, there could be a distinction between talking about "one" sister, which she did, and enumerating "one" sister, which she did not.

Perhaps I should have said, at least one sister.

The claim that MJK had a sister who was respectable, worked at the markets, and who loved her dearly (words to that effect), almost reads like she is referring to an older sister, which was not listed in the 1881 census.

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

Tommy?

Hello (again) Debs. The "Thomas" weakens it a bit more. If not Hubert, one might expect "Tommy."

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

weaker

Hello Debs. Thanks. That does weaken the case a bit.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Velma. Thanks. Perhaps John Hubert or Hubert John? Of course, John seems the easier choice.

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn, all
Hubert Kelly was in fact Hubert Thomas Kelly, as noted by Livia Trivia ages back. He died in 1883. Surely Thomas would have been the obvious choice of name if he wasn't happy with Hubert?

[RavenDarkendale]

perhaps.

and perhaps some paperwork might someday be found.

But sometimes called names are simply off the wall and people looking back 100 years later might never figure them out.

A woman I know is officialy named Glenna. Her grandfather said "I'm going to call her Susie."

He did and everyone else always has.

A man I know was named Jerry Alford Jr., his youngest sister started calling him "Petey John" and thus he is always known -- 40-some years later.

Unusual, sure. But names are strange things and the official names are not necessarily the name everyone knows a person by.

Chuckle Yes, this happens a lot. My Uncle's name was Riley Fred Wymer but he was called "Bud". An Aunt was Leela Mae Falkie who was called "Pat". My nephew is Malcolm Edward Porter, affectionately known as "Bobby".

[Debra A]

Might that fact be very important in looking for MJK as a family acquaintance?

You can almost be sure that any person taking the family as her own then knew the Kelly family prior to the birth of Elizabeth.

Coming from a big family, I almost forget (and certainly don't know) a lot of the younger cousins who were not born at the time I was attending family gatherings with my parents.

I'm just correcting the fact that Jon said Brymbo Mary only had one sister, Curious.
Interesting as it is, I don't really go with Jon's theory that the real MJK might have been an acquaintance of the family of Brymbo Mary and using her details. I think the Flint Kelly's fit as many of the coincidence criteria too, don't they?

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn.


C'mon Lynn, take a dash more water with it

I listed them in post 429.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249159&postcount=429

Here's a more precise breakdown.
An imposter must select a:

1) - Kelly family, and pose as a

2) - daughter who..

3) - was born in 1864 +/- 2 yrs?

4) - was born in Ireland.

5) - moved to Wales.....

6) - .....before 1880 +/- 2 yrs?

7) - has seven brothers.

8) - has one sister.


Ok, Lynn, if eight coincidences are not extraordinary enough, how many would you accept?

And, anyone else can help out here, how many Kelly families fit this same criteria in the census records?

I think it is astonishing.

Regards, Jon S.

I don't know if this is what you had in mind, Jon but I think that the Church St Flint Mary Kelly (her second name was Ann but so was Brymbo Mary's) written about by Chris Scott in "Will the real Mary Kelly..." can also fit 7 similar coincidences as set out in your list and one different one:


1. Family name is Kelly
2. Mary is daughter of the family
3. was born c 1865
4. Was born in Ireland
5. Moved to Wales
6. Before 1880 ( 1870/1 in this case)
7. Has one sister
8. Father is named John Kelly

[curious]

also-

Jon, just a quickie concerning coincidence #8. Brymbo Mary had two sisters-Bridget b c 1859 and Elizabeth b c 1870.

Might that fact be very important in looking for MJK as a family acquaintance?

You can almost be sure that any person taking the family as her own then knew the Kelly family prior to the birth of Elizabeth.

Coming from a big family, I almost forget (and certainly don't know) a lot of the younger cousins who were not born at the time I was attending family gatherings with my parents.

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks. Perhaps John Hubert or Hubert John? Of course, John seems the easier choice.

Cheers.
LC

perhaps.

and perhaps some paperwork might someday be found.

But sometimes called names are simply off the wall and people looking back 100 years later might never figure them out.

A woman I know is officialy named Glenna. Her grandfather said "I'm going to call her Susie."

He did and everyone else always has.

A man I know was named Jerry Alford Jr., his youngest sister started calling him "Petey John" and thus he is always known -- 40-some years later.

Unusual, sure. But names are strange things and the official names are not necessarily the name everyone knows a person by.

[Debra A]

Hi Lynn.


C'mon Lynn, take a dash more water with it

I listed them in post 429.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249159&postcount=429

Here's a more precise breakdown.
An imposter must select a:

1) - Kelly family, and pose as a

2) - daughter who..

3) - was born in 1864 +/- 2 yrs?

4) - was born in Ireland.

5) - moved to Wales.....

6) - .....before 1880 +/- 2 yrs?

7) - has seven brothers.

8) - has one sister.


Ok, Lynn, if eight coincidences are not extraordinary enough, how many would you accept?

And, anyone else can help out here, how many Kelly families fit this same criteria in the census records?

I think it is astonishing.

Regards, Jon S.

also-

- MJK also claimed to have a sister.

Brymbo-mary had just one sister.

Jon, just a quickie concerning coincidence #8. Brymbo Mary had two sisters-Bridget b c 1859 and Elizabeth b c 1870.

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Possibly you are not alone, I have typically dismissed it as an odd story to spread about."

Unhesitatingly agree.

Could you live with Barnet concocting the stories for "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

significance

Hello Jon. Thanks for this. Sorry for the bother.

Would you agree that the last two (permutation of siblings) represent the items of most significance?

Cheers.
LC

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rivkah,
We are talking about a army regiment in 1888, not a modern day one , that has more sympathetic , and less snobbish outlooks.
I would suggest in Victorian England, fallen women were looked upon as individuals that were to be avoided, this would have been especially so amongst the higher ranks of the regiment, so it would be no surprise if Mary's brother would be reluctant to share knowledge, that his sister was a Ripper victim, someone who was killing local prostitutes.
One of the UKs favourite dramas[ also the US] Is Fontain abbey a period drama set in the early 1920s, and one can see the clear distaste of Prostitution , amongst people that considered themselves more fortunate.
Happy holidays ,
Regards Richard.