Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[RivkahChaya]

Yes thankyou Debs, there may even be a third similar case in existence, it still doesn't make the coincidences any less staggering.
And it could, for reasons explained earlier, provide a direction for future research.

Just because "two" people pick the same winning lottery numbers doesn't lessen the staggering odds that you have to be damn lucky to make up the right sequence out of the blue.
I've never said it was impossible.

Merry xmas, Jon S.

Be careful when you talk about odds; you are specifying an event after it has already happened. The odds are not so staggering for an event that has already transpired.

If you randomly select two people, and without looking at any of their personal details, say "What are the odds that X, Y and Z will match?" the odds are very slim. Now, if you say, "What are the odds that of all the information I have, three things will match?" the odds are not as slim, but still medium-low.

However, if you take someone, study their details, go looking for a match, find one, and then say "What are the odds I would find a match?" the odds are 100%, because you did. It's difficult to go back and calculate what they were before you looked, but remember, in the first two situations, your pool of matches is one. It the second, it is very large.

[RivkahChaya]

Thinking about it you're right...I'm David Charles White, but within my own family (to distinguish me from my father, David Edwin) I was always known as Charlie...

sometimes called names are simply off the wall and people looking back 100 years later might never figure them out.

A woman I know is officialy named Glenna. Her grandfather said "I'm going to call her Susie."

He did and everyone else always has.

A man I know was named Jerry Alford Jr., his youngest sister started calling him "Petey John" and thus he is always known -- 40-some years later.

I know a guy in his 80s now, a professor emeritus, whose first name is "Darrell," and who has been called "Kip" his whole adult life (except for those of us who call him "Dr. Smith," of course). Apparently, his parents called him "Skippy," when he was a little boy, which was a common thing to call a boy back then (the 1930s) in the US, and when he got older, he tried to get people to call him by his real name, but wasn't successful, because everyone was used to "Skippy." He did manage to get people to pare it down to "Skip," then when he got to junior high, or high school, or something, to "Kip," and he was satisfied enough with that not to try for "Darrell" again when he went away to college, and remained Kip ever since.

Upper class colliers?

That was my first thought, except with a few more question marks. But maybe they were managers, or superintendents, and not actual miners. They could have been middle class. That would make them wealthy enough to have a son who could manage to be an officer, but still have a daughter they couldn't rescue, wouldn't it?

Personally, I don't buy this scenario, but I'm playing along for fun; if the brother in the military had some kind of position the police would have been willing to cover-up to protect, then he pretty much would have to be an officer, wouldn't he?

Hello Jon. That story has always sounded suspicious to me. "I did not like such a luxurious situation so I opted for misery." Don't think so.

Me too. On preponderance of evidence, I suspect MJK of just making stuff up, and this one is particularly suspicious.

However, just to play along, two suggestions: the man was way more into kink than MJK realized when she agreed to go, like, S/M sort of kink, or "no safe word" BDSM. I'd run away too, no matter how nice the rooms were. The other is that she didn't speak French, and that was a bigger deal than she realized. Not knowing the language, and being unprepared for the situation, can be very depressing (I saw a study on military spouses on foreign bases to that effect once).

[Wickerman]

What I was trying to get across, Jon was that Mary Ann and the rest of the Kelly family living at Church St Flint Wales in 1881 researched by Chris Scott, among others, also fit MJK's story on 8 points, as your list for Brymbo Mary does. The only difference being that there wasn't several brothers listed in the Flint Kelly family in 81 but a counter to that is that the head of the family is named John Kelly, which makes it an even 8 points of similarity as well, meaning the Brymbo family weren't that unique in being a match then?

Anne? Both Brymbo Mary and Flint Mary were named "Mary Anne", I just mentioned it so neither could take preference namewise-they are on an equal footing with Mary Anne.

Yes thankyou Debs, there may even be a third similar case in existence, it still doesn't make the coincidences any less staggering.
And it could, for reasons explained earlier, provide a direction for future research.

Just because "two" people pick the same winning lottery numbers doesn't lessen the staggering odds that you have to be damn lucky to make up the right sequence out of the blue.
I've never said it was impossible.

Merry xmas, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

She seems to have led a life after that period in and out of relationships, yet the lease to room 13 was in Marys name. So she wasnt trying to hard to hide at that time.

Thats assuming "Mary Kelly" was her name in France?, ...it could have been Mary Smith. I mean, we don't know what name she used before she appeared in the East end.
And, if, as you hypothesize, she was working with some clandestine group, even Marie Jeanette Smith may have been an adopted name.
She then "jumped ship", so to speak, and returned to England, aiming for Ratcliff to disappear for a while.
She eventually meets Barnett under the name "Kelly" and tells him she preferred to be called Marie Jeanette, but she's taken the name "Kelly" by now.

Really, we are trying to play 'snap' with a blank deck of cards here

Regards, Jon S.

[Debra A]

Thankyou Debs, yes minor differences can be dealt with (Ann?), its the similarities that are unique.

Regards, Jon S.

What I was trying to get across, Jon was that Mary Ann and the rest of the Kelly family living at Church St Flint Wales in 1881 researched by Chris Scott, among others, also fit MJK's story on 8 points, as your list for Brymbo Mary does. The only difference being that there wasn't several brothers listed in the Flint Kelly family in 81 but a counter to that is that the head of the family is named John Kelly, which makes it an even 8 points of similarity as well, meaning the Brymbo family weren't that unique in being a match then?

Anne? Both Brymbo Mary and Flint Mary were named "Mary Anne", I just mentioned it so neither could take preference namewise-they are on an equal footing with Mary Anne.

[lynn cates]

could be

Hello Mike. Thanks.

"Or it could be someone who wants Millen to be considered as a suspect."

Possibly. And I think the same considerations apply to Blotchy. Recall, he was never located either--in spite of a diligent search.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

She seems to have led a life after that period in and out of relationships, yet the lease to room 13 was in Marys name. So she wasnt trying to hard to hide at that time.
All the best.

Since it appears that the name she used to rent the room was likely an alias . . .

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Yes, A -Man sounds a good bit like Millen, BUT, Simon Wood has established that he was in America at the time.

So, why is his description floating about?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,

I thought that I read somewhere he was in Ireland at the time, but in either case, it would seem as you said the description could not have been intended to be Millen by anyone who knew Millen's whereabouts at the time. Maybe thats Hutchinson relating an urban legend surrounding the murder..."The general himself done it, to silence the poor girl". Or it could be someone who wants Millen to be considered as a suspect, perhaps because the individual felt that the Irish rebels were behind some of the murders. Perhaps Hutchinson was an Irish rebel himself, and he saw an opportunity to pin the crime on the double spy.

IF, when Mary Jane was "Marie Jeanette" in France she met with Millen or his ilk and the lot who often staged events from the French coast or Paris, perhaps acting as a courtesan to either a British Spy or Irish,...she would be of interest to both parties.

She seems to have led a life after that period in and out of relationships, yet the lease to room 13 was in Marys name. So she wasnt trying to hard to hide at that time.

Hmm.

All the best.

[lynn cates]

Ah!

Hello Jon.

"whoever MJK was, she appears to have been running "from the type of people who would not normally associate with the East end".
Its where you would go to disappear"

Now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Mike. Yes, A -Man sounds a good bit like Millen, BUT, Simon Wood has established that he was in America at the time.

So, why is his description floating about?

Cheers.
LC

Very good question, Lynn,
Any thoughts?

Thanks,

[lynn cates]

Millen

Hello Mike. Yes, A -Man sounds a good bit like Millen, BUT, Simon Wood has established that he was in America at the time.

So, why is his description floating about?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Does that mean she had a call girl status vs street girl? Or...and more probable to me anyway,...did her Irish background, her good looks and her ability to mingle with upper income folks or folks with access to large sums of money...like the Irish Terrorists of the period, ...place her among company in France that scared her?

Hi MIchael.
That (last) thought has crossed my mind, if this bizarre story was true, whoever MJK was, she appears to have been running "from the type of people who would not normally associate with the East end".
Its where you would go to disappear... but like I said, for the longest time I simply dismissed it as hyperbole.

Merry xmas, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

I don't know if this is what you had in mind, Jon but I think that the Church St Flint Mary Kelly (her second name was Ann but so was Brymbo Mary's) written about by Chris Scott in "Will the real Mary Kelly..." can also fit 7 similar coincidences as set out in your list and one different one:


1. Family name is Kelly
2. Mary is daughter of the family
3. was born c 1865
4. Was born in Ireland
5. Moved to Wales
6. Before 1880 ( 1870/1 in this case)
7. Has one sister
8. Father is named John Kelly

Thankyou Debs, yes minor differences can be dealt with (Ann?), its the similarities that are unique.

Regards, Jon S.

[Michael W Richards]

Provisionally, working with one story MJK shared with Barnet.

This is the radical descent, almost suggestive of an attempt to disappear from someone?:

What did she do when she came to London? - She lived in a house at the West-end - a gay house - with a madam.

How long did she live there? - As far as she described it to me, a few weeks.
Then some gentleman asked her to go to France, and she went, but, as she described it to me, she didn't like it, and came back in about a week or two's time.

Did she tell you the name of the place in France? - She told me, but she did not remain long, as she did not like it.

Did she live in France long? - No, about a fortnight.

When she returned from France where did she tell you she lived? - In the Ratcliff-highway.


The story she describes appears to have her fall from the high life to the bottom of the barrel in two weeks?
So perhaps this Gentleman was not too pleased with her?

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon,

It is this story that intrigues me the most about Mary, and one that I think may be the key to my "pet theory" that Mary was exposed to high ranking Irish Self Rule factions. The story suggests to me a courtesan sort of role, perhaps Mary spoke French...(we do hear of Marie Jeanette as a reference to her in her past), and the dresses she used at this bordello seemed to have some monetary value, ...(she apparently sought to recover them after she had left the location),... suggesting to me that the circles she traveled in at one time prior to her death were more prosperous than her final surroundings.

Does that mean she had a call girl status vs street girl? Or...and more probable to me anyway,...did her Irish background, her good looks and her ability to mingle with upper income folks or folks with access to large sums of money...like the Irish Terrorists of the period, ...place her among company in France that scared her?

If so, that would explain a threat to her from Irish rebels if she left without their permission...she would have known individuals and plans....it would explain why the Police would know of her and perhaps seek her out for information, it would explain why she might assume another identity....small town girl fearful of the people she was exposed to, it would suggest that George Hutchinson was being truthful when he came into the station Monday night...his suspect is almost identical to descriptions of a senior ranking Irish double spy, it would explain the interest of the Royal Irish Constabulary in the murder scene on Monday morning,...and it might address what information Kate may have intended to sell that got her killed.

My point earlier on money and motive when it comes to murder....in the protection of information held by secretive agencies, be they malicious or passive, large sums of money available and acts of extreme violence are not unexpected. In this particular city at that particular time there were ample supplies of both types of men in secretive roles. Some officiated the Ripper investigations, some planned dynamite events.

When these murders occurred there was heightened sensitivity when it came to issues of security within their own Parliament,....although no link to any of that turmoil has ever been discovered with direct implications on any Ripper murder,... I feel that there are links. Most probably, with Mary Kelly.

Best regards, Happy Ho Ho.

[curious]

I'm just correcting the fact that Jon said Brymbo Mary only had one sister, Curious.
Interesting as it is, I don't really go with Jon's theory that the real MJK might have been an acquaintance of the family of Brymbo Mary and using her details. I think the Flint Kelly's fit as many of the coincidence criteria too, don't they?

Hi, Debra,
Indeed they do. Do you have a pet theory that you're checking out and willing to share?

I was just thinking along Jon's line of thought and could see how it might happen that someone taking someone else's identity might not know or include a younger sister . . .

Just a mental exploration. At this point, MJK is an enigma to me.

curious