Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Michael W Richards]

"We only know that MJK sometimes shared her room, the names of these women are pretty much unknown. Someone could have mention that so-and-so hadn't been around for a while, and that would have pretty much been it."

I posted this a couple weeks ago.

Is that excerpt from journalist Kit Watkin's of the Toronto Mail Millers Court interviews in '91 DRoy?

Cheers

[DRoy]

"We only know that MJK sometimes shared her room, the names of these women are pretty much unknown. Someone could have mention that so-and-so hadn't been around for a while, and that would have pretty much been it."

I posted this a couple weeks ago.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi all,

I think in this case its more probable that the woman found in room 13 was the woman we know as Mary Kelly, but that she wasnt born with that name.

I agree with the folks who have concluded that a substitution for Mary Kelly isnt really workable, ...it would have been something she would have had to orchestrate and then keep silent about for the rest of her life.

Best regards

[Chava]

Did you, per chance, try Van Turney?

Yes, and no! Couldn't find anyone never mind Julia!

Observer I completely agree. If the woman Mary Ann Cox saw in Millers Court was MJK and I assume she was since Cox knew her well, she was as drunk as a lord. No way she executes a cunning plan like what's been suggested here.

[Observer]

MJK is extremely elusive. But I don't think she's elusive enough to escape Millers Court alive. And the logistics bother me. If this was a random murder there was no reason to assume that she was the target and disappear from view like that. The Ripper had killed at least 3 other random women by that point. If she thought she was a target, did she lure someone else in there to be killed in her place? This was not an age of mass-access to public information. All MJK had to do was walk away from Millers Court and move to South London or some other location and change her name (again). She didn't have to sacrifice a fellow-whore to get away.

Hi Chava

I would have thought that if she was planning such a move, she would have stayed sober during it's execution

Regars

Observer

[Bridewell]

This was not an age of mass-access to public information. All MJK had to do was walk away from Millers Court and move to South London or some other location and change her name (again). She didn't have to sacrifice a fellow-whore to get away.

Hi Chava,

Entirely agree, although it has been suggested that MJK might have done a disappearing act after coming home and finding carnage in her bed. Personally i think that, had she done that, she'd have told someone straight away. I don't think anyone could just quietly slip away after such a ghastly discovery.

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

Van Turney

Hello Chava.

Did you, per chance, try Van Turney?

Cheers.
LC

[Chava]

I went looking for Julia Venturney et al in Free BMD. Couldn't find her anywhere. Lots of Maria Harveys and a couple that might have fit the bill dying in Lambeth and Hackney. But there are too many women with that name to find this one without a lot more information than we have.

MJK is extremely elusive. But I don't think she's elusive enough to escape Millers Court alive. And the logistics bother me. If this was a random murder there was no reason to assume that she was the target and disappear from view like that. The Ripper had killed at least 3 other random women by that point. If she thought she was a target, did she lure someone else in there to be killed in her place? This was not an age of mass-access to public information. All MJK had to do was walk away from Millers Court and move to South London or some other location and change her name (again). She didn't have to sacrifice a fellow-whore to get away.

[RavenDarkendale]

We only know that MJK sometimes shared her room, the names of these women are pretty much unknown. Someone could have mention that so-and-so hadn't been around for a while, and that would have pretty much been it.

[Michael W Richards]

People were born, lived and died without ever being in the mainstream records folks, particularly those who came to the East End from almost anywhere, and some who were born and raised there. Looking for someone who disappeared assumes that someone knew she was there in the first place. All we know is that there were thousands of homeless women, and men, and between the transient lifestyle and the ability to create new personnas at will, unknown people slipped off into the shadows everyday.

Cheers

[Bridewell]

Let me suggest you save this pdf, it includes Niderkorn's Standards for the development of Rigor, it was the 'Standard' for the 19th century autopsy.
http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedi.../timedeath.pdf

Hi Jon,

I particularly noted this within the pdf:

A recurring problem in forensic medicine is the need to fix the time of death within the limits of probability. It is self-evident that the longer the interval of time between death and the examination of the body, the wider will be the limits of probability.

It would have been invaluable if the police had gained access to the room much earlier than they did.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

No-one Went Missing

Has anyone tried to trace the other names that are associated with the women who supposedly stayed in the room? Did any of them have a history that abruptly stopped in the fall of 1888?

Hi Rivkah,

I think that is the nub of it. Tecs's post was excellent, well-structured and well-argued. Having said that, anyone who was staying in Kelly's room, and in her bed, would presumably be one of her friends. Wouldn't the disappearance of one of Kelly's friends at the same time as the murder have been the subject, if not of suspicion, then at least of some comment? As Tecs has demonstrated it's not impossible that the woman in the bed was someone other than MJK but, as none of her friends is known to have disappeared at that time, it seems, to me anyway, highly improbable.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What are you saying, Barnett would lie about the stranger on the bed?"

No, not particularly. One must, however, express some doubts about his whole story since none of it is corroborated by the historical record.

Cheers.
LC

Merely "'er 'air and eyes" Lynn, hardly a ID to call conclusive. I believe the key to Barnett's statements is located within the circumstances of his ID. Where exactly did he view Mary? When? Ive read reports that say police let him see her through the window while she was still in bed. Neither her 'air or her eyes would be visible from there. Her hair was down her back, her eyes covered by a flap of slashed skin.

Heres a possible reason Barnett might be a liar. Maybe he moved out of room 13 because he knew Mary was in imminent danger. Maybe he knew someone was looking for her, maybe she told him. Maybe he was frightened of this person too. Maybe so frightened and so weak morally that when he hears of Marys death and sees her beyond any help, he acts in a manner to save his own skin. If he tells what he knows, he knows he'll be doomed.

Would you tell the grand kids that one when they ask about those scary days? Would you own up to being a coward..even when it couldnt matter less what you did back then, in practical terms?

I say....hmm.

Cheers

[Chava]

That's a damn' good question RivkahChaya. I don't know if anyone ever has and someone should!

[RivkahChaya]

But that means he never would have cracked, not once in all those years, not even at her funeral, nor in front of her family, if that is who was there. Since we know where he was for the rest of his life, we can assume that we would know if he eventually told someone, and it seems he didn't, not even years later, when one might suppose it really wouldn't matter so much anymore, and not even when he'd had too much to drink.

Has anyone tried to trace the other names that are associated with the women who supposedly stayed in the room? Did any of them have a history that abruptly stopped in the fall of 1888?