Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[RivkahChaya]

Hi Lynn,
It was reported that Mary's family were somewhat well off, indeed her brother allegedly was concerned, that future army prospects may be endangered , suggesting possible promotion .
I would suggest that if Mary originated from a better class, then her true identity may well have been withheld.
The ''mums the word'' theory has long been associated with JTR, right from the outset, secrecy is not dismissed..
Regards Richard.

Seriously? The Scots' Guards cared that he had a sister way over in the East End of London who had, umm, fallen from grace? How would they even know that? Honestly, I've been in the military, and so has my husband, who even served in Iraq. The military in 2012, when information is very easy to get, doesn't bother to keep files on people's siblings, except for maybe a handful of people in very high security positions.

On another topic, what kind of informants did the police use? I'm having trouble picturing MJK as some kind of undercover agent, or someone with political motives. However, I could see her as someone who might exchange things she happened to overhear for either money or not being arrested. I don't know what the legal status of prostitution was-- it seems to have gone on right under the noses of the beat cops, but I'm guessing they just had bigger fish to fry, rather than that it was legal.

I'm not thinking she would have had useful information on high crimes, but there was probably a lot of petty thievery in a poor section of town. Maybe places where AWOL sailors hid out. Who knows?

I also doubt that she would have run into much trouble over political activity, but I do wonder if prostitutes ever had trouble with stalkers? I really don't know; I'm just speculating that if she ever did change her name to run away for her safety, it would be more likely to be from a former client who was stalking her, than from political enemies.

[Cogidubnus]

Thought-provoking post Rivkah...thanks

All the best

Dave

[curious]

Hello Jon. Thanks. That helps.

So, where does that leave us? "MJK" took over Brymbo's bio and passed herself under that name. Let's accept that for a moment. After all, the story coincides with respect to geography and siblings.

I can also accept minor deletions and embellishments.

But one problem seems to occur--why not call your "father" "Hubert" and not "John"?

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Just weighing in on this: what if Mary Brymbo's father was called John in the family but his official name was Hubert?

My father was Kennie Carl and always called Carl inside the family. At work and in official records, he was "Kennie C."

Another family line has a long line of John as the first name, but the men were all known by their middle names. For example John Jacob went by Jake, John Wesley went by Wes, and John Claude went by Claude.

A young woman assuming the name of someone she knew might not even have been aware of the father's official name, knowing him only by the called name.

curious

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Velma

Thinking about it you're right...I'm David Charles White, but within my own family (to distinguish me from my father, David Edwin) I was always known as Charlie...

Nice one!

Dave

[Wickerman]

Provisionally, working with one story MJK shared with Barnet.

This is the radical descent, almost suggestive of an attempt to disappear from someone?:

What did she do when she came to London? - She lived in a house at the West-end - a gay house - with a madam.

How long did she live there? - As far as she described it to me, a few weeks.
Then some gentleman asked her to go to France, and she went, but, as she described it to me, she didn't like it, and came back in about a week or two's time.

Did she tell you the name of the place in France? - She told me, but she did not remain long, as she did not like it.

Did she live in France long? - No, about a fortnight.

When she returned from France where did she tell you she lived? - In the Ratcliff-highway.


The story she describes appears to have her fall from the high life to the bottom of the barrel in two weeks?
So perhaps this Gentleman was not too pleased with her?

Regards, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

class conflict

Hello Richard. Thanks.

Upper class colliers?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

first draft

Hello Mike. Thanks.

OK. Look forward to removing the rough edges.

Same wishes to you.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

list

Hello Jon.

"so how could Barnett know so many familial details about a woman he never met?"

Perhaps it would be interesting to list them. Sometimes they seem somewhat fewer in a list.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

choice

Hello Velma. Thanks. Perhaps John Hubert or Hubert John? Of course, John seems the easier choice.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

funny story

Hello Jon. That story has always sounded suspicious to me. "I did not like such a luxurious situation so I opted for misery." Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hi Lynn.

Hello Jon.

"so how could Barnett know so many familial details about a woman he never met?"

Perhaps it would be interesting to list them. Sometimes they seem somewhat fewer in a list.

Cheers.
LC

C'mon Lynn, take a dash more water with it

I listed them in post 429.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=249159&postcount=429

Here's a more precise breakdown.
An imposter must select a:

1) - Kelly family, and pose as a

2) - daughter who..

3) - was born in 1864 +/- 2 yrs?

4) - was born in Ireland.

5) - moved to Wales.....

6) - .....before 1880 +/- 2 yrs?

7) - has seven brothers.

8) - has one sister.


Ok, Lynn, if eight coincidences are not extraordinary enough, how many would you accept?

And, anyone else can help out here, how many Kelly families fit this same criteria in the census records?

I think it is astonishing.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon. That story has always sounded suspicious to me. "I did not like such a luxurious situation so I opted for misery." Don't think so.

Cheers.
LC

Possibly you are not alone, I have typically dismissed it as an odd story to spread about.

"Oh yes, ladies, I lived the highlife too, but I didn't like it!" (sure Mary, sure, nudge, nudge)

Regards, Jon S.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Rivkah,
We are talking about a army regiment in 1888, not a modern day one , that has more sympathetic , and less snobbish outlooks.
I would suggest in Victorian England, fallen women were looked upon as individuals that were to be avoided, this would have been especially so amongst the higher ranks of the regiment, so it would be no surprise if Mary's brother would be reluctant to share knowledge, that his sister was a Ripper victim, someone who was killing local prostitutes.
One of the UKs favourite dramas[ also the US] Is Fontain abbey a period drama set in the early 1920s, and one can see the clear distaste of Prostitution , amongst people that considered themselves more fortunate.
Happy holidays ,
Regards Richard.

[lynn cates]

significance

Hello Jon. Thanks for this. Sorry for the bother.

Would you agree that the last two (permutation of siblings) represent the items of most significance?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

agreed

Hello (again) Jon. Thanks.

"Possibly you are not alone, I have typically dismissed it as an odd story to spread about."

Unhesitatingly agree.

Could you live with Barnet concocting the stories for "MJK"?

Cheers.
LC