Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks. Now I am confused. I located (Brymbo) Mary Kelly, daughter of Hubert and Bridget. She is given as 17 and a servant in the 1881 census. She is listed in the McDermott family tree having married a chap by that name in 1891 (back in Galway). They had some children, one of whom lived until about 1977, and produced the offspring in the photograph. Mary died in 1940.

Would it help if I sent the tree?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn,
It's a case of someone on Ancestry compiling a family tree without doing any proper research and just jumping to conclusions.

I have seen the marriage certificate of Brymbo Mary that includes her father's name and her address, as has Jon and Paul Begg, to name a few.. This certificate was found by David Knott and was the subject of much discussion recently on this casebook thread. Mary is then traceable as Mary Jones, wife of Griffith right up to 1911-there's no doubt it is her (see my post #17 about McDermott):

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6587

[lynn cates]

confused

Hello Debs. Thanks. Now I am confused. I located (Brymbo) Mary Kelly, daughter of Hubert and Bridget. She is given as 17 and a servant in the 1881 census. She is listed in the McDermott family tree having married a chap by that name in 1891 (back in Galway). They had some children, one of whom lived until about 1977, and produced the offspring in the photograph. Mary died in 1940.

Would it help if I sent the tree?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Thanks.

When I can find the nerve, I must chat up the descendants about their Gran. (Shameless ripper student that I am!)

Cheers.
LC

Lynn, your time would be better spent looking for Hubert Jones' granny! David Knott found that Brymbo Mary married definitely married Griffith Jones in Wrexham in 1886. The Jones family plus Mary is traceable to 1911 census.

[lynn cates]

Gran

Hello Debs. Thanks.

When I can find the nerve, I must chat up the descendants about their Gran. (Shameless ripper student that I am!)

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Jon, Debs. I found this old photograph of Brymbo Mary's grandchildren.

Mary went back to her birth county in 1891 and married a man named McDermott (oh, please). She spent time in America but returned to Galway to die, ca. 1940.

(Cute little buggers.)

Cheers.
LC

A very bad case of granny grabbing I'm afraid, Lynn.

[lynn cates]

Quien?

Hello Mike.

"Mary was fond of another man named "Joe", most assume it was Flemming. I no longer do."

Then whom?

Cheers.
LC

[Michael W Richards]

Something need to be said about the body being identified at this point...because many seem to feel the ID's validate the notion that the body was the woman known as Mary Jane Kelly.

McCarthy and Bowyer, 2 people who knew Mary casually, saw the body in the room,... Marys eyes were obscured by a hanging flap of forehead skin at the time, her hair was down her back and out of sight. They would have seen the body from the left side only, from the window, and my guess is that they didnt look at that mess for too long. Barnett ID's a former live-in lover by ONLY her hair and eyes....if he identified her Friday afternoon in the room, neither feature could be clearly seen. Prater saw the body in the room but wasnt asked to identify Mary in situ. It is really clear where Barnett ID'd Mary.

So....of all the people who knew Mary best, women in the courtyard, Maria Harvey, and of course Joe Barnett, only Joe officially ID's her and by just 2 features. Didnt recognize her hands evidently, or her feet, or calves, or her arms. Features I feel any lover could identify.

If they were lovers of course.

Mary was fond of another man named "Joe", most assume it was Flemming. I no longer do.

Cheers

[RavenDarkendale]

@ RivkahChaya

I didn't mean that the police were compliant in any type of cover up. The body looked horrible and probably smelled worse. The quick inquest would be to get the body taken care of ASAP. The body was in 13 Miller's Court, was female, and MJK lived there. Barnett states that it is MJK. Others don't think so, having by their testimony seen her alive after TOD stated.

TOD could have been wrong, allowing the witnesses to be right and Barnett right as well.

Barnett could have been right and the witnesses mistaken.

Barnett could have been wrong and the witnesses right.

In a city the size of London people go missing everyday. But here's something I would like you to ponder.

In 1974 Patty Hearst, having been kidnapped and brainwashed by the SLA, was involved in a bank robbery. She was on the FBI most wanted list. She was captured almost a year later, living right next to a police station where she had resided around 6 months. Her wanted poster was in every post office in the country. She managed to live a fairly normal life while the FBI scoured the country for her.

From the FBI most wanted list:

Glen Stewart Godwin is being sought for his 1987 escape from Folsom State Prison in California, where he was serving a lengthy sentence for murder. Later in 1987, Godwin was arrested for drug trafficking in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. After being convicted, he was sent to a prison in Guadalajara. In April of 1991, Godwin allegedly murdered a fellow inmate and then escaped five months later.

Godwin is fluent in Spanish and may be traveling throughout Central and South America, and Mexico. He is thought to be involved in narcotics distribution.

Everyone in law enforcement is looking for this guy and cannot find him. International searches in any number of countries still goes on today with no luck.

After Miller's Court and the inquest, no one was looking for MJK, as far as they were concerned she was dead and buried. Perhaps she was seen, perhaps people recognized her: The inquest said she was dead. So people would figure they were wrong.

But there was no real reason for her to move very far since she was believed dead, and since many women on the street used false names anyway, change her hairstyle and live as someone else, right among the same streets and places. When asked or recognized as MJK, simply stating that "Sorry, but I'm _____________, you are mistaken." would cover the problem. Also the people in Whitechapel were more worried about something to eat and a bed to sleep in to wonder if MJK might not be dead.

God bless

Darkendale

[lynn cates]

choice of coroner

Hello Jon.

"However, in a case of National Security where a victim needs to stay incognito, even after death. Any "powers that be" would need to meet with the Coroner behind closed doors."

Now you're talking. They might also eschew a chatty and dramatic chap like Baxter. One must know when to keep mum and not speculate.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

I was following, up until you suggested that the police were complicit in not correctly identifying the body. Certainly, the police have an interest in correctly identifying the victim, because doing so helps them identify the killer, and because if they do not correctly identify her, and then she comes strolling, live, into the public view, they have egg on their faces.

It's already been pointed out by another poster that if the idea was just to make MJK disappear, there doesn't need to be an incorrectly identified body. The police have no interest in facilitating an incorrect identification, or covering one up.

It might help if we separate the responsibilities.
For an Inquest it is the responsibility of the police to bring sufficient evidence to bear to enable the Coroner to establish the identification of the victim.
So, the police bring all the facts in the form of testimony, as simple or complex at they might be, then..
The Coroner brings forth the various testimonies to establish who she was.

Given this situation, I find it difficult to see how the police could sway a particular identification, given that the Coroner chooses his own panel of witnesses from the dozens of statements given by witnesses to police.

However, in a case of National Security where a victim needs to stay incognito, even after death. Any "powers that be" would need to meet with the Coroner behind closed doors.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

People were also not exactly sure what caused it, so, as I've mentioned, the fact that so much muscle tissue was missing from the body may have affected the estimate of rigor. Did they really examine the muscle that was removed and left on the table for rigor?

I had the impression that 19th century doctors did not know the causes of rigor, I suspected they associated rigor with body temperature.

If you look at the face, the tissue on the chin is twisted upward oddly, which makes me think that rigor in the head and neck was pretty firm, and that's where rigor starts, then progresses downward, in MJK's case, through the area where so much muscle was missing. Heat speeds up rigor, so it's possible that there could have been rigor in the face very soon after death, but never firm rigor in the torso and pelvis, due to the missing tissue.

Also if the victim was stressed before death, that would speed up rigor, this has been discussed with both Annie Chapman and MJK, that both may have struggled for their lives sufficiently to upset the level of lactic acid in their muscles. But then ambient temperature works against this, then there's loss of blood, so it is easy to see the complexity involved in the considerations both Phillips and Bond had to make with respect to both times of death.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

Bond said that rigor mortis had begun but was not marked. I read that as meaning that the onset of rigor was recent. Bond also claimed that it commenced after 6 hours. It's actually about 3. Post mortem commenced at 2pm. Time of Death was therefore before 11am - which we already know. I don't see that the medical evidence necessarily conflicts with that of Maxwell & Lewis - but the killer would need to have worked with great haste - which (if MJK was a Ripper victim) we know he was capable of.

Regards, Bridewell.

Hi Colin.

Ok, so it wasn't Bond's estimate of the time of the murder you were referring to?

"....so one or two o'clock in the morning would be the probable time of the murder".

I was comparing those words with a time implied by Maxwell's story, that she would have had to have died between 9-10:00 am. A difference of maybe 7-9 hrs.

Regards, Jon S.

[RivkahChaya]

Bond said that rigor mortis had begun but was not marked. I read that as meaning that the onset of rigor was recent. Bond also claimed that it commenced after 6 hours. It's actually about 3. Post mortem commenced at 2pm.

People were also not exactly sure what caused it, so, as I've mentioned, the fact that so much muscle tissue was missing from the body may have affected the estimate of rigor. Did they really examine the muscle that was removed and left on the table for rigor?

If you look at the face, the tissue on the chin is twisted upward oddly, which makes me think that rigor in the head and neck was pretty firm, and that's where rigor starts, then progresses downward, in MJK's case, through the area where so much muscle was missing. Heat speeds up rigor, so it's possible that there could have been rigor in the face very soon after death, but never firm rigor in the torso and pelvis, due to the missing tissue.

[Bridewell]

Hmm, but its the measure of the error thats the problem. A professional like Bond might make an error of an hour, or two? - but I think you are suggesting an error of about 8 hours?

Bond said that rigor mortis had begun but was not marked. I read that as meaning that the onset of rigor was recent. Bond also claimed that it commenced after 6 hours. It's actually about 3. Post mortem commenced at 2pm. Time of Death was therefore before 11am - which we already know. I don't see that the medical evidence necessarily conflicts with that of Maxwell & Lewis - but the killer would need to have worked with great haste - which (if MJK was a Ripper victim) we know he was capable of.

Regards, Bridewell.

[Bridewell]

There's really no telling how much time JTR would have needed to do what he did to the body, but the assumption that hours were required is probably wrong.

I think so.

Regards, Bridewell.