Limerick, the Key?

[SuspectZero]

So Limerick is still an option.

The McCarthy thing is quite interesting! Any other records found of her mother or any other relatives with the last name McCarthy?

Nothing. This combo or something close to it disappears. I'm still investigating the Marie Kelly. Father is John and Mother is Ann McCann.

[JadenCollins]

So Limerick is still an option.

The McCarthy thing is quite interesting! Any other records found of her mother or any other relatives with the last name McCarthy?

[curious4]

The baptism record for the Mary Kelly with mother Anne McCarthy, copied at http://www.rootsireland.ie/, reads as follows:
Name: Mary Kelly Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 22-Apr-1864
Address: Parish/District: BALLYAGRAN
Gender: Unknown County Co. Limerick
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: John Kelly Mother: Anne McCarthy
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: John Mullane Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Alice Hannon

So far I have been unable to match this to any Welsh records.

The mother's maiden name here is interest ing, as Mary was rumoured to be related to McCarthy.
(Just realised Bridewell beat me to this -apologies)

[GUT]

Also maybe the mothers maiden name is Savage - father is James Kelly.

Savage ...... How appropriate.

[SuspectZero]

And one more Kelly that might fit

And I found an Irish baptism record for Marie Kelly - birth 12/31/1863.
Father was John Kelly and Mother was Mary.

[SuspectZero]

The 1871 Census for England is showing Mary Ann Kelly born in 1864 in Limerick, Ireland. Shows the wife/mother is Margaret Kelly (also born in Limerick). Her occupation is Tailoress. No father is listed, which is curious as it clearly refers to Margaret as wife, not widow. Here sister is also named Margaret. They are all living in Whitechapel (St. Marks District) at 6 Chambers Street. Seems there might be a few families living at the same address.

Also maybe the mothers maiden name is Savage - father is James Kelly.

[SuspectZero]

Here's another interesting Find...

The 1871 Census for England is showing Mary Ann Kelly born in 1864 in Limerick, Ireland. Shows the wife/mother is Margaret Kelly (also born in Limerick). Her occupation is Tailoress. No father is listed, which is curious as it clearly refers to Margaret as wife, not widow. Here sister is also named Margaret. They are all living in Whitechapel (St. Marks District) at 6 Chambers Street. Seems there might be a few families living at the same address.

[SuspectZero]

I like this one too. Father named John, about the right age, born in County Limerick, brother also named John, but especially the mother's surname being McCarthy. It would explain how MJK was allowed to build up so much debt in rent arrears and how her landlord knew that her family were still able to contact her by letter and, indeed, how they did so.

I found another Mary Kelly in the 1871 Welsh census that might qualify. She is listed as being born in 1864 in Wicklow, Ireland. Her father is John Kelly of Wicklow (Laborer) and her mother is Ellen Kelly of Dublin.
This is Mary Ann Kelly and in 1871 she has a sister, Elizabeth and 2 brothers - John & Patrick. The family is living in Flint, Wales. They are still all living in Wales in 1881 in Flint on Church St.

[SuspectZero]

I have access to Welsh census records. I'll give this a search.

[PaulWilliams]

The baptism record for the Mary Kelly with mother Anne McCarthy, copied at http://www.rootsireland.ie/, reads as follows:
Name: Mary Kelly Date of Birth:
Date of Baptism: 22-Apr-1864
Address: Parish/District: BALLYAGRAN
Gender: Unknown County Co. Limerick
Denomination: Roman Catholic
Father: John Kelly Mother: Anne McCarthy
Occupation:
Sponsor 1 /
Informant 1: John Mullane Sponsor 2 /
Informant 2: Alice Hannon

So far I have been unable to match this to any Welsh records.

[Pcdunn]

I like this one too. Father named John, about the right age, born in County Limerick, brother also named John, but especially the mother's surname being McCarthy. It would explain how MJK was allowed to build up so much debt in rent arrears and how her landlord knew that her family were still able to contact her by letter and, indeed, how they did so.

Very interesting supposition.

[Bridewell]

To start to find Mary, it would be useful to eliminate Limerick MKS born in the 1860s. If it was possible to trace various Marys, one might emerge who could be a contender.

MK born 1864 Castletown, parents John Kelly and Anne McCarthy.
That Castletown one has always been my favourite. Two brothers,John born 1866, Peter born 1868 and a sister whom Ive lost!

Happy New Year, Miss Marple

I like this one too. Father named John, about the right age, born in County Limerick, brother also named John, but especially the mother's surname being McCarthy. It would explain how MJK was allowed to build up so much debt in rent arrears and how her landlord knew that her family were still able to contact her by letter and, indeed, how they did so.

[DJA]

with laymen filling in at other times.

Is that an informed gravediggers pun?

[SuspectZero]

It would depend on his clergymen.

Some were pretty much allowed to run the place others were strictly limited in what they were allowed do.

I found notes in one church's BDM records that the Sexton had made most of the entries because the Clergyman assigned that task to him, but that clergyman was in charge of a number of churches so he probably delegated a lot of the detail work in each local church to the Sexton as the Clergman seemed to only get to the fringe churches every couple of months, with laymen filling in at other times.

Now I imagine a City Church the vicar would only have one church to look after, but if in another area he had one of those circuits with multiple churches he may well have continued with his delegation mindset. Or it may Have been that the Clergyman was happy with the idea, maybe even the originator but a the £sd were collected by the Sexton he was seen as the one behind it.

I read in s paper that Msry was close to a church. The priest was quoted as knowing her and seemed to have knowledge of her origins. Perhaps he was connected to St. Leonard's.

[GUT]

For myself, this is a step one: What is a "sexton"?

It turns out this figure is in charge (at least in the 20th Century) of the physical plant of the church, as he is to see everything is in good condition and running well, and he helps orders supplies. In the 19th Century he might have the same duties, but was also in charge of the church grounds and the burial ground.

So our Sexton was in charge of St. Leonard's graveyard. Now my question becomes, did he have the power to decide who could be buried in the church graveyard, or did he need permission from the clergyman and the deacon and others as to bringing in new internments? I would have to assume that his willingness to start a collection to bury Mary at St. Leonard's required some form of permission.

Jeff

It would depend on his clergymen.

Some were pretty much allowed to run the place others were strictly limited in what they were allowed do.

I found notes in one church's BDM records that the Sexton had made most of the entries because the Clergyman assigned that task to him, but that clergyman was in charge of a number of churches so he probably delegated a lot of the detail work in each local church to the Sexton as the Clergman seemed to only get to the fringe churches every couple of months, with laymen filling in at other times.

Now I imagine a City Church the vicar would only have one church to look after, but if in another area he had one of those circuits with multiple churches he may well have continued with his delegation mindset. Or it may Have been that the Clergyman was happy with the idea, maybe even the originator but a the £sd were collected by the Sexton he was seen as the one behind it.