Limerick, the Key?

[lynn cates]

R I C

Hello Debs. Just found a Bernard O'Malley, RIC, who testified on 30 October and again 1 November. Irwin also testified then.

On 7 November we have a Welsh and Barry. Barry began testimony the day before.

Any good?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

I'll check.

Hello Debs. Thanks. Think I'll check on testimony dates. Maybe something will pop up.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Quite reasonable, schedule permitting. I can consult MacDonald's diary for the days of their testimony. Would this help? Was there a time frame for their testimonies vs. their coming to London?

Cheers.
LC

Hi Lynn. I would have no idea when they came over in relation to when they testified even if I knew when they testified. I suppose we could see how long they stayed by the date of the watch stealing and other times they are mentioned in the papers? For example the death of a witness staying at the Caledonian Hotel occurred in November and an RIC man is mentioned as sharing a room with him, or knowing him, something like that.
The RIC are not listed as taking part in the Lord Mayor's Show in any official capacity as far as I can see looking at the PMG list of participants.

[Debra A]

Debs, the reason I dismissed John Ward was the fact he had married in 1882 in Ireland which suggests he had not gone to Wales, If supposedly 'John Kelly' had gone to Wales to find work with family when Mary was a child that suggests a date of the 1870s.
I checked Wards in Wales [looking for the father] under common first names starting with John, I could not find any Wards who originated in Ireland,on the 1881 census, they were all Welsh.
I am looking at all the first fifty common Limerick surnames to see the frequency of these names in Wales and how many had an Irish origin and if any family matches Mary's family starting with the name John for the father.
This will take ages, some names are more frequent than others, but I am hoping a pattern will emerge or something will stand out, you never know.

Miss Marple

I was just curious about you saying he was too old, MM. I'm just very interested in what different criteria people are using to rule individuals in/out or make them possible.
I probably don't think Ward is the right man either, though I wonder if a soldier could marry where he was stationed rather than where he had once lived? There are a few male Wards in the 1881 census born in Ireland and living in Wales, do you mean Wards who were too old or young or in the wrong county in wales?
Good luck with the Limerick surnames research. Sounds like a lot of hard work!
Hopefully something might come out of it.

[lynn cates]

schedule

Hello Debs. Thanks.

"Well, we know members of the RIC were definitely over from Ireland in November to give evidence, so, perhaps they planned to take in the Lords Mayor's Show too?"

Quite reasonable, schedule permitting. I can consult MacDonald's diary for the days of their testimony. Would this help? Was there a time frame for their testimonies vs. their coming to London?

Cheers.
LC

[miss marple]

Debs, the reason I dismissed John Ward was the fact he had married in 1882 in Ireland which suggests he had not gone to Wales, If supposedly 'John Kelly' had gone to Wales to find work with family when Mary was a child that suggests a date of the 1870s.
I checked Wards in Wales [looking for the father] under common first names starting with John, I could not find any Wards who originated in Ireland,on the 1881 census, they were all Welsh.
I am looking at all the first fifty common Limerick surnames to see the frequency of these names in Wales and how many had an Irish origin and if any family matches Mary's family starting with the name John for the father.
This will take ages, some names are more frequent than others, but I am hoping a pattern will emerge or something will stand out, you never know.

Miss Marple

[The Good Michael]

Hi.
Mary Kelly's hair colour was described well by the son of McCarthy , that is if one takes the view of his grand daughter Ms Kendall Lane.
Regards Richard.

Hearsay. Inadmissible.

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Mary Kelly's hair colour was described well by the son of McCarthy , that is if one takes the view of his grand daughter Ms Kendall Lane.
Regards Richard.

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Mary Kelly's hair colour was described well by the son of McCarthy , that is if one takes the view of his grand daughter Ms Kendall Lane.
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

MJK couldn't have been any of those colors? And this from a black and white photo? Again, we don't know her hair color, or maybe you do and the rest of us don't.

Mike

I agree, I just don't know.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

I think it's about 25 to 30 miles from the Western borders of the County of Limerick...so not an impossible distance...

All the best

Dave

Thanks, Dave. I thought it looked nearish.

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Hmm, now you're talking.

Cheers.
LC

Well, we know members of the RIC were definitely over from Ireland in November to give evidence, so, perhaps they planned to take in the Lords Mayor's Show too? One of them did managed to get his watch nicked from the Alhambra Threatre, so it wasn't all work and no play.

[The Good Michael]

Errata,

Let me help you a bit with brunette:

deepest brunette - the darkest brown, which can be a very dark chestnut; sometimes appears to be off black at a distance.[3]
dark brown
milk chocolate brown
chestnut brown - medium brunette to dark brown with dark auburn tones.
light chestnut brown
medium brown - standard brunette, comparable to russet brown
walnut brown - a warmer variant of medium brown, comparable to a light chestnut
medium golden brown - brown with yellowish tone.
light golden brown
light golden reddish brown - a warm light brown with red tones.
medium ash brown
light ash brown - almost blonde hair
lightest brown - light brown that goes mid blonde in the sun

MJK couldn't have been any of those colors? And this from a black and white photo? Again, we don't know her hair color, or maybe you do and the rest of us don't.

Mike

[Errata]

It could be, but no one really knows. Blonde, brunette, strawberry blonde, red, we don't know. It's that simple.

Mike

But people do know. She is alternately described as a blonde or redhead, which would lend a person to believe she had reddish blonde hair. In the photograph taken at the crime scene, her hair color is consistent with that of someone with medium to dark blonde hair, noticeably lighter in tone than the average brunette. She certainly didn't have dark hair. In fact her hair appears to be the same general shade as the wood of the bed, which would be oak or pine, both falling well within the blonde range.

And if one likes, one could look up pictures of George Armstrong Custer, who is famous for his blond hair, and see that the two colors are almost an exact match, but with Kelly having more beige than white, which would indicate a reddish tone to the blonde, as opposed to the yellow tone of Custer.

So if she doesn't look like a brunette, why would she be a brunette?

[Cogidubnus]

This made me think,Why would a Catholic boy from Limerick join the Scots Guards, which is a particularly protestant regiment which supported William and Mary?

I initially took this at face value, but thinking about it, doesn't it contain a generalisation? How do we know he's a Catholic boy from Limerick? Despite the frequent calls for Catholic Emancipation, the Roman Catholic Church was not in complete ascendancy in the southern counties - it had been off and on suppressed since the mid 17th century (hence the hatred of Cromwell...though arguably Wentworth/Strafford was probably as bad) and the Church of Ireland (Eaglais na hÉireann) was oft promoted in it's place...Even as late as partition in 1922 between 7.5 and 10% of southern Irish were protestant...so he could be a protestant lad from Limerick, or Tralee, or even a chapel lad from Welsh Wales look you....

Dave