Limerick, the Key?

[Cogidubnus]

Which is back exactly where we were a couple of days ago!

Dave

[lynn cates]

no contact

Hello Caroline.

"it could be that all efforts to find or contact the family failed"

Absolutely. Could not agree more. And if anyone doubts it, that person may inform Debs Arif about just which information to use in the search. She and I would love to know.

Cheers.
LC

[Scott Nelson]

An excellent synopsis Caroline. I'm in total agreement with you.

[caz]

Hi all,
No one has said much so I'm just wondering-what does anyone else make of these reports that the family were travelling from Wales to London and the funeral was postponed as a result?

Hi Debs,

I have a sinking feeling that it's no coincidence that Mary's family cannot be found now and they were nowhere to be found then, despite the massive global publicity about her gruesome murder.

I suspect that the original newspaper story may have been based on the natural assumption that family members would shortly be arriving in London to do the necessary, arrange and pay for the funeral and so on. In short, they were 'expected' to show up (but okay, they'd have to travel from Wales by all accounts, so allow them time), but time went on and it became clear they were not coming, with the result that others had to step in.

Now to me it does not seem likely that the family were successfully contacted, said they would come, then either changed their minds or had no intention of putting in an appearance. However, it could be that all efforts to find or contact the family failed, but they were still expected because they'd have to be living in a cave not to have heard the awful news.

I'm wondering if a more likely conclusion is that the relatives - if any - of the dead woman simply didn't recognise her from any of the details they would have read in the papers, and because of that, nobody knew who they really were or how to get in touch. How much did our 'Mary' even know herself?

I'll stop now, I'm depressing myself!

Love,

Caz
X

[curious]

Poor Mr. Wilton ended up footing all the bill.
Mr.McCarthy wanted to contribute, apparently, but his money wasn't needed, even though Mr Wilton was asking for subscriptions to help out the day before? In the end the Parochial authorities were relieved to hear that family and friends had paid for the funeral! (For family and friends I read Mr. Wilton)
Carry on regardless ...

Hi, Debra,
I don't know the original sources here, of course, and you're the expert, but if Mr. Wilton asked for subscriptions the day before, then McCarthy's money was not needed, I don't see Wilton having paid for it all.

That sounds to me as though some one else "family and friends" came through.

[lynn cates]

too poor

Hello Jon. Indeed. But, as we all know, "the residents of the East End were too poor to afford them." So Packer doubtless went out of business in double quick time.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Hello Colin. Could be an excellent time.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that "MJK" was indeed a Scot. Didn't she ask Hutch for a loan? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

She asked him for 6d, maybe she had a deathwish, thats the price of a pound of grapes..

[lynn cates]

MacTeagle

Hello Colin. Could be an excellent time.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced that "MJK" was indeed a Scot. Didn't she ask Hutch for a loan? (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Limerigg

Hello Debs. Hmm, Scotland? There's a thought. They were paying for nothing.

"Marie Jeanette" might work if the whole story were a cover for a French girl, but, my word, the implications are staggering. Sure, the hair colour sounds like south of France, but . . . ?

Cheers.
LC

Is this a good time to mention Limerigg again - 20 miles east of Glasgow?

Regards, Bridewell.

[lynn cates]

The Scots

Hello Debs. Hmm, Scotland? There's a thought. They were paying for nothing.

"Marie Jeanette" might work if the whole story were a cover for a French girl, but, my word, the implications are staggering. Sure, the hair colour sounds like south of France, but . . . ?

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. Well, if true, it might indicate that some of Barnett's story about her family were true.

But since they seem not to have arrived, one would have expected a good reason printed in those same papers.

When it comes to Kelly's family, one feels as though he were waiting for Godot.

Cheers.
LC

I'm guessing you think not the Marie Jeannete bit?

As well as keeping everyone waiting the family weren't very forthcoming when it came to contributing towards the funeral either, Lynn (hmmm. Jeanette..Scotland..). Poor Mr. Wilton ended up footing all the bill.
Mr.McCarthy wanted to contribute, apparently, but his money wasn't needed, even though Mr Wilton was asking for subscriptions to help out the day before? In the end the Parochial authorities were relieved to hear that family and friends had paid for the funeral! (For family and friends I read Mr. Wilton)

We have another occurrence where the press also thought the funeral was postponed from the Monday (originally postponed from Thurs/Fri because of "the family") to Tuesday due to the fact that Mr.McCarthy and Barnett wanted Mary buried according to Catholic rites, but the bit about postponement wasn't true in that case and she was buried on Monday the 19th.

Carry on regardless ...

[curious]

As a break from checking Wales. I looked at the 1871 Census for London. I found this-

6 Chambers St Whitechapel
Margaret Kelly age 30, tayloress, married born Ireland, Limerick
Mary Ann daugh age 7 born Ireland, Limerick
Margaret daugh age 2 born Ireland, Limerick
Mr Kelly is not present.
Chambers St runs parallell with Royal Mint St, near the docks, a heavy Irish area, where Joe Barnett once lived as a child.
I had a quick look at the Irish records to see if I could find the birth of those girls.
Margaret Kelly born 8th May 1868, Limerick, parents John Kelly and Margaret Cremins
Could not find a close match for Mary, only Mary Kelly born Feb 4th 1866 Adare Limerick parents John Kelly Margaret Cummins, This name could be mistranscribed as could the date.
Margaret must have been in London less than two years, her husband could have been a docker, or maybe he was in Wales.

Miss Marple

I find this very interesting, and if Cremins was written in cursive, I can see it being read as Cummins or vice versa.

Any luck finding them in a later census?

[lynn cates]

Godot

Hello Debs. Well, if true, it might indicate that some of Barnett's story about her family were true.

But since they seem not to have arrived, one would have expected a good reason printed in those same papers.

When it comes to Kelly's family, one feels as though he were waiting for Godot.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi all,
No one has said much so I'm just wondering-what does anyone else make of these reports that the family were travelling from Wales to London and the funeral was postponed as a result?

[miss marple]

As a break from checking Wales. I looked at the 1871 Census for London. I found this-

6 Chambers St Whitechapel
Margaret Kelly age 30, tayloress, married born Ireland, Limerick
Mary Ann daugh age 7 born Ireland, Limerick
Margaret daugh age 2 born Ireland, Limerick
Mr Kelly is not present.
Chambers St runs parallell with Royal Mint St, near the docks, a heavy Irish area, where Joe Barnett once lived as a child.
I had a quick look at the Irish records to see if I could find the birth of those girls.
Margaret Kelly born 8th May 1868, Limerick, parents John Kelly and Margaret Cremins
Could not find a close match for Mary, only Mary Kelly born Feb 4th 1866 Adare Limerick parents John Kelly Margaret Cummins, This name could be mistranscribed as could the date.
Margaret must have been in London less than two years, her husband could have been a docker, or maybe he was in Wales.

Miss Marple