Kellys in the Scots Guards

[Debra A]

"Quip"? ...at Debs?, are you kidding?
I was surprised to see Debs respond at what must be midnight over there.

Regards, Jon S.

Yes, Jon. Up well past my bedtime again, I was. What a naughty little girl I am!
Meanwhile I see Simon has been napping

[Wickerman]

As far as can be determined, Kelly owned half a candle and the clothes she stood up in. So what were these 'possessions' that were allegedly returned to her alleged brother who was allegedly serving in the army?

Is this assuming the Kendal-lane story is true?
I mean, you are not referring to a contemporary source with that question?

Thanks, Jon S.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

This is Ripperology.

Nothing would surprise me.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

Simon, don't be surprised if someone accuses you of taking a bribe....

[Simon Wood]

Lost In Translation?

Hi All,

Barnett's original witness statement—

"The deceased told me on one occasion that her father named John Kelly was a foreman of some iron works at [sic] lived at Carmarthen or Carnarvon, that she had a brother named Henry serving in 2nd Battn. Scots Guards, and known amongst his comrades as Johnto, and I believe the Regiment is now in Ireland . . ."

Barnett mentioned Henry Kelly immediately after John Kelly.

Did he actually say "and known amongst his comrades as John, too" [also known as John]?

Merely a thought.

Regards,

Simon

[Wickerman]

I'm sorry Jon, perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but this appears to me to be a total contradiction in terms...

Best wishes

Dave

Hi Dave, you're correct I missed this.
I'm not clear what you're are getting at. I made suggestions based on newspaper reports, or how they may not actually contradict each other.

Why do you think we look for a family of Kelly's in Limerick, or for a Mary Kelly, or a dead miner named Davies/Davis around Cardiff?

We do it because we are using the news reports, that is all we have.

Working with them is what we are doing, but when two news stories appear to be contradictory, a suggestion surfaced with a view to discrediting one of them.
I simply made an observation that McCarthy's "letter from Ireland" need not be rejected because some think it conflicts with Barnetts "Mary did not correspond with family" comment.

With all the blood sweat & tears of our excellent team of researchers (dare not name them incase I miss one), but we have nothing conclusive to show for all that effort.
So, we work with the stories until something tangible bares fruit.

Where is the contradiction here?

"Quip"? ...at Debs?, are you kidding?
I was surprised to see Debs respond at what must be midnight over there.

Regards, Jon S.

[Garry Wroe]

Well Garry, possessions are whatever she had in her pockets ...

An IOU for thirty shillings.

... and the remains of her clothes.

A few worthless rags, Jon.

[Garry Wroe]

Unless Kelly's "brother" was an officer candidate (unlikely), why would receipt of her possessions threaten his career?

Precisely, Dave.

[Wickerman]

So, with respect Jon, what's that to do with what you've lately been posting?

Puzzled

Dave

Thats OK Dave, nothing to do with Kelly's literacy, but everything to do with her having Family in Limerick, and a brother named John.

It could have been either Mark King or Peter Birchwood who sourced those records, but I wondered if it was found to be a dead end, or just filed away.
Just a question Dave.

Well Garry, possessions are whatever she had in her pockets, and the remains of her clothes.

Regards, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Semi-light

As far as can be determined, Kelly owned half a candle and the clothes she stood up in. So what were these 'possessions' that were allegedly returned to her alleged brother who was allegedly serving in the army?

Garry - what a bloody good question...this is the issue I've always had with the McCarthy story...yeah ok she had a picture... and one or two other possessions...maybe 5lb weight...9d postage + packing costs....why would McCarthy bother? Unless Kelly's "brother" was an officer candidate (unlikely), why would receipt of her possessions threaten his career?

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

So, with respect Jon, what's that to do with what you've lately been posting?

Actually, on a hunch, I just looked, and you've actually ignored the last two or three queries I had, yet had a good chip at Debs...I do trust your critical analysis isn't sex-biased?

Dave

[Garry Wroe]

As far as can be determined, Kelly owned half a candle and the clothes she stood up in. So what were these 'possessions' that were allegedly returned to her alleged brother who was allegedly serving in the army?

[Cogidubnus]

So, with respect Jon, what's that to do with what you've lately been posting?

Puzzled

Dave

[Wickerman]

C'mon, wake up Debs...

Do you remember if this line of enquiry was ever pursued?

If her name was Kelly we have a very promising birth entry that has always been there, which needs following up, Which means delving deep into Irish records.
Three siblings born to John Kelly and Anne McCarthy [ coincidence ] ? of CASTLETOWN LIMERICK

Mary Kelly born 1864
John Kelly born 1866
Peter Kelly born 1868
A birth date of 1864 is right for her death at 25,
John was 22 in 1888 old enough for a soldier.
I have not the resources for this, it would mean checking parish records for a marriage of John and Anne, addresses, possible births of other children and seeing if this Mary stayed or married in Limerick which would rule her out, or if she or the whole family disappear, possibly to Wales.
If anyone wants to take it on, its a big task, just tracing that one family.
Cheers Miss Marple

It is one of the oldest results we've had on Casebook but for the life of me I cannot remember who sourced it out.

Thanks, Jon S.

[Debra A]

There's a brief and somewhat obscure comment by Barnett that always had me wondering.
Barnett said Mary went to France, she was there only two weeks because "she did not like the part"?
There's another comment somewhere that Mary had a friend/relative on the stage.
Did she go to France to play a role on stage as an actress, or as an extra?
If so, surely she could read.

Also, we have another comment about Mary's father coming to Pennington-street to look for her, but she avoided him.
How did her father come by an address?, is it possible that this is the address that the letters from Ireland came to, those from her mother?
McCarthy knew about Mary receiving letters from Ireland, but he does not claim to have received them himself.
McCarthy's comment could be explained by the landlady from Pennington-street forwarding a letter received from Ireland to McCarthy's place, passing it on to Mary. According to Barnett, she never wrote back?

With respect to any tradition, surely Mary's father could read, given his "gaffer" job at the Iron Works. Likely then he made sure the boys could read, so why not Mary?
Then there's another question, was she taught to read Gaelic in Ireland (before 16) or English?, or both?
Did her mother write to her in Gaelic? Thats why she never responded, she had lost touch with the language in the last 10 years?
Maybe her English reading was still not great (Barnett reading for her), but her Gaelic was even worse?

I always prefer to work with what we have rather than reject what we don't understand. The challenge is to make sense of it

All the best, Jon S.

Ermm...OK, Jon.

Party at Wicks place everyone!