Kellys in the Scots Guards

[lynn cates]

Por que?

Hello Jon.

"If Mary Kelly was not her real name, then neither was her father John or her brother Henry/John called Kelly. We have no avenue to pursue."

Possibly, but not necessarily. We might begin by asking, "Why would a young girl wish to confuse her identity?"

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

What people seem to be forgetting is, if we are sticking to Mary's story as the absolute 'truth' ......

Ouch, did I just feel a prod with a sharp stick!
Debs, please, I was born at night, but not last night. I only said those news reports are all we have, not that they are the absolute truth!
Meaning..... we are in no position to discredit, change or discard any one of them until something tangible surfaces to demonstrate any one of those stories holds a minutae of truth.

then we must find a brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards, and there is no Kelly who fits the bill. So, he gave a false name they cry, but why is it more believable that Henry Kelly gave a false name to join up rather than MJK gave a false name?

Because, Debs, we still hold the slender hope of something else she said turning up. But.... if Mary Kelly is not her real name, we are totally dead in the water to research anything she said at all.
If Mary Kelly was not her real name, then neither was her father John or her brother Henry/John called Kelly. We have no avenue to pursue.

And if her name was false then looking for the family is like looking for a needle in a haystack, evn if the rest of the story is true. They could be called anything!

Precisely!, so why cook the goose before we've thoroughly plucked it

(careful how you say that)

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[lynn cates]

fundamentum in re

Hello Colin. You have touched on something important here. A lie is easier to remember if it contains a bit of the truth.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Texanism

Hello Debs.

"But you are agreeing with the majority of us on this thread, not just Lynn;that MJK lied to Barnett in some way.'

Now you're talking.

"There is no Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888, so she must have lied at least once."

Hmm, as the locals express it, "Yiiihhaaaaa!"

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Thomas

Hi All,

Which group indeed?

The Times, 16th October 1888 -

"Up to yesterday the efforts of the detectives had been at fault, owing, as was suggested by the City Solicitor at the inquest, to the fact that Conway had drawn his pension from the 18th Royal Irish Regiment under a false name, that of Thomas Quinn."

Regards,

Simon

I note that Conway's alias is an alias surname only. He retained Thomas, his real first name (perhaps to avoid being caught out?). Instead of looking for Kellys in the Scots Guards, should we, perhaps, be seeking Limerick-born Henrys? Is this a manageable project, Debs, or are there too many of them?

Regards, Bridewell.

[Debra A]

It's in the majority of the press reporting as far as I can see, Simon. Though no mention of him being called Johnto (or anything else) by his comrades in those same Scots Guards.
Lloyd's Weekly Sunday, November 11, 1888 is the first one that came up.
It goes something like: a brother in the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards came to see her once..

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Thanks for that. Good to see the original.

Could you point me to the Scots Guards reference in the press?

Many thanks.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

The part featuring 'Johnto' was posted by Dave O'Flaherty on a recent thread here, Simon:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=6508&page=17

A (second bout) of discussion about whether it is meant to say 'John too' then follows on the same thread.

Perhaps the name 'Johnto' was quite significant and worth keeping out of the press? The Scots Guard made it to press though.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

Yes, his original witness statement was his police statement, taken on 9th November. I haven't seen the originals but, according to the Ultimate, these are "mainly in the hand of Abberline."

I would have thought that releasing the Johnto/Scots Guards/in Ireland information to the press would have aided the police investigation into the background of the Millers Court victim.

But obviously not.

Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

According to the Kelly inquest transcript held at the Greater London Record Office, Barnett did not mention the Scots Guards whilst under oath.

Barnett: "She also said she had 6 brothers at home and one in the army, one was Henry Kelly."

Why wasn't it repeated in the press that her brother was called Johnto by his comrades?

Because, and for whatever reason, whomever took Barnett's original witness statement kept that detail to themselves.

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon.
But it is in his police statement isn't it?
The statements are in Abberline's handwriting according to a recent thread.

[Debra A]

But who are we to stop the headless chickens

But you are agreeing with the majority of us on this thread, not just Lynn;that MJK lied to Barnett in some way.
There is no Henry Kelly in the Scots Guards in 1888, so she must have lied at least once.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor.

"Its perhaps not so much a question of Barnett lying its a question of how many lies Kelly told to him."

Right. And it was Chris Scott's book first converted me to this view.

Cheers.
LC

But who are we to stop the headless chickens

[lynn cates]

conversion

Hello Trevor.

"Its perhaps not so much a question of Barnett lying its a question of how many lies Kelly told to him."

Right. And it was Chris Scott's book first converted me to this view.

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

According to the Kelly inquest transcript held at the Greater London Record Office, Barnett did not mention the Scots Guards whilst under oath.

Barnett: "She also said she had 6 brothers at home and one in the army, one was Henry Kelly."

Why wasn't it repeated in the press that her brother was called Johnto by his comrades?

Because, and for whatever reason, whomever took Barnett's original witness statement kept that detail to themselves.

Regards,

Simon

[Garry Wroe]

"Up to yesterday the efforts of the detectives had been at fault, owing, as was suggested by the City Solicitor at the inquest, to the fact that Conway had drawn his pension from the 18th Royal Irish Regiment under a false name, that of Thomas Quinn."

One example doesn't make a trend, though, Simon. Trawl the records and you'll find aliases in abundance amongst the Whitechapel prostitute community, as well as a propensity towards gilding the lily that exasperated a number of newsmen.