Kellys in the Scots Guards

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
The sad fact is, knowing now that Chris Scots photograph is not authentic, we have to erase from our minds all the possibilities that the family scene portrayed We are left with just hearsay, and dead leads, which we have always had.
It appears that Mary did have a brother in the army, but is non traceable , we have oral tradition that Mrs McCarthy parcelled up Kelly's belongings and forwarded them on to what was described a a ''reluctant receiver'', but our informant to that, has not shown a desire to elaborate.
The whole point being, that all of our ''new clues'' derive from people that claim to know, but are reluctant to say, a few dangling carrot's , that end up eaten, with no second helping's.
It certainly is a frustrating subject that we indulge in...
Regards Richard.

[Archaic]

Welsh Origin?

That Mary "had a cousin in Wales" suggests to me that one (or both) of her parents might have been born in Wales rather than in Ireland.

Best regards,
Archaic

[Wickerman]

Thanks for the explanation Jon, but when you say 'unit' do you mean the Battalion was split into smaller groups that were spread around?

No Debs I did not mean to suggest a battalion would split.
Why did I shift to saying "units"?
I'll explain.
The thought occured to me that Barnett might have confused Scots Guards with Scots Greys. But was there ever any battalions in what was basically a cavalry regiment?

Well actually yes, once there was, but before the 19th century.
The Scots Greys also rotated on what was known as Home Service, but in the 19th century I know of no battalions in this regiment. However, the Scots Greys did rotate through England, Scotland AND Ireland. But as of this writing I have found no reason to suggest they were in Dublin in the important period.
I just though it better to refer to military units rather than specify battalions.

No one is saying 'Henry' couldn't have joined up in Ireland, but if the battalion travel together he would have come back to England in 87 and not go back to Ireland until Sept 88?

Agreed, no-one is saying that.
If he joined up in England, say the early 1880's, he could have come via Wales.
If he joined up in Dublin prior to the 1800's then he would not be among those who arrived in Wales, hence no Welsh 'nickname', was my point.
We don't know when he enlisted, thats the problem.

I found it interesting that the nickname 'Jonto' is associated (and I gave examples) with the name john(s)ton. That's all. It kind of makes more sense in that case that Henry Kelly in the 2B Scots Guards could possibly have been someone named Johns(t)on, whether brother or lover.

Agreed, I thought it was an interesting 'turn of events', though the "lover posing as brother" is a relationship which cannot be researched so is unhelpful as a solution.
I'll just stay with legitimate brother if you don't mind.
However frustrating this line might become it is still researchable, and does not require us to accept something for which no proof exists.

Mary reportedly went to Wales when young Barnett said, he mentioned other members of the family but wasn't specific about who went where, I will agree with you there.

I'll sleep tonight...

Mary had a cousin in Wales and obviously her father too. It wouldn't be a stretch at all to assume that the police would also think the whole Kelly family along with Henry etc. also moved to Wales, as we assume it too and look for them there.

I think we need to apply what is least problematical.
Either, the whole Kelly clan plus aunts (uncles?) & cousins moved to Wales, or, the whole Kelly clan moved to Wales to be with their aunts/uncles/cousins, or, only the father, Mary & ? moved to Wales to stay with their relatives as a temporary measure?

Yet Barnett tells us that Mary never received communication from her family and wasn't in touch with them.

Are you referring to this?
"...A brother in the Second Battalion Scots Guards came to see her once, but beyond that she saw none of her relations, nor did she correspond with them."

I interpreted the above sentence along with that where Barnett says he had to read newspaper articles for Mary, taken together it is possible that Mary could not read or write.
Therefore "not corresponding" meant she did not write back. He did not say that they did not correspond with her, but that she did not correspond with them. His comment could be taken either way, so we cannot claim she had no letters from home.

Mccarthy had to do was wait until another letter arrived from Ireland and hand it in to the police...the mother and family would then be traced?

Do you think Abberline reported back to McCarthy that they could not trace her relatives? Probably not, eh?

Best Wishes, Jon S.

[Cogidubnus]

Well said, Dave. Good post!

Why thanks Debs

Love Dad

oops!

Dave

[lynn cates]

story

Hello Simon, Debs. That's a sound conjecture. (I almost celebrated that Barnett got one thing right.)

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Dear old mum.

Hello Debs.

"I think that wondering if MJK gave a false name, or made up part of her background story is far from being dramatic or mysterious!'

Right. This is one case where one can question without being thought a looney--good evidence exists for it.

"I hope none of the 'new identity' theorists post their thoughts or Jon might blow a gasket!"

OK. Mum's the word. (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[Simon Wood]

Hi Debra,

On Tuesday 3rd September 1889 the 2nd Battalion Scots Guards returned to London from Dublin.

Middlesex Messenger 6th September 1889—



Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

Thanks, Simon.
I said in an earlier post that I wondered if Barnett might have just read that the Scots Guards were in Ireland, the same way we can now?
Here's Dublin '88 mentioned in the records of a 2nd Battalion Scots Guard too:

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

At least Joseph Barnett got one thing right.

The Times, 28th August 1888—



The Times, 7th September 1888—



Regards,

Simon

[Debra A]

And now you've brought Jon's post to my attention again, Dave-I think that wondering if MJK gave a false name, or made up part of her background story is far from being dramatic or mysterious!
I hope none of the 'new identity' theorists post their thoughts or Jon might blow a gasket!

[Debra A]

Well said, Dave. Good post!

[Cogidubnus]

The point to avoid Dave, is the tendency to draw conclusions from what we do not know. Assuming the police made an attempt to find her relatives, they would naturally approach the military, but, as we keep saying, if Henry enlisted under a different name they would be stumped.

There were no pictures to publish to help locate her family. Without an address, assuming no letters remained, the police have no avenue to pursue. It really is not a mystery and should not be exaggerated by anyone into being viewed as a mystery, some people are drawn towards the dramatic.

I don't think I read anywhere that anybody was drawing any firm hard and fast conclusions about anything Jon...At most just speculating on possible scenarios which might or might not be worthy of further research....a series of "what-ifs" if you like....And whilst I agree that it may be tempting to prematurely formulate complex theories on insufficient data, as far as I can see nobody, (including myself), was actually doing that.

If, on the other hand, you're suggesting that because we know nothing, then we shouldn't cast around for possible avenues for further research, I'm very much afraid we'll all be doomed to a lifetime of ignorance! Frankly I'd rather spend a little time speculating with good friends rather than sit on my hands in the corner

All the best

Dave

[Carol]

Hi everyone,

I've had an extremely quick look at all the information and tomorrow I'll look properly. All I can say is 'Wow! Boy, are you lot wonderful!'

See you tomorrow.

Carol

[Carol]

Hi Carol

Yes, I think a few people as well as curious have mentioned that Mary probably had tuberculosis in past discussions too. It seems likely doesn't it?

As far as I remember, Chris Scott inquired about the Cardiff Infirmary records a few years ago and was told that they no longer exist. Chris can correct me if I've remembered that wrong as it's going back a fair bit.


That gave me a good laugh, Carol! Thanks.

Thanks for your reply, Debs.
Carol

[Archaic]

Tonsils

Not that it adds a jot to the hunt for Kelly, but one little Ripper researcher first opened his eyes on the world there. Later he lost his tonsils there. The ward hadn't changed much from the one shown a few posts back.

I wonder if they still have Paul's tonsils?

No, the Cardiff Infirmary sold them to a peculiar American doctor who said he wanted to complete his private collection of human body parts displayed in glass jars.

Cheers,
Archaic