Definitely canonical

[Jon Guy]

I underlined where your subconscious made my point...

I was just covering my arse Mike. It was a conscious effort, my friend.

There was a candle in 13 Millers Court, and half an hour before Chapman was killed John Richardson said it was light enough to see all over the place.

[Mitch Rowe]

Not if his actual "signature" was simply to get into the victims' innards by any means he could, Mike.

He is sort of right. It does seem odd. But not as odd as it would have been had Eddowes died behind a fence.

It could have been that Stride was killed by someone else and the Ripper and Eddowes expected to go behind the fence.

Obviously, self-preservation would figure somewhere on his list but I`m guessing it would also have been very tricky cutting out panels in the darkness of Mitre Sq, and if he couldn`t see it, why not the faster, long cut.

I underlined where your subconscious made my point...a long cut would be faster, and to my eye, theres little difference in what perceived time may have been available at Hanbury or Mitre. Which brings it back to light as a possible reason the flaps werent present with Kate.

Although the fireplace was said to contain the ashes of a large fire, and although Inspector Abberline suggests there was a bright hot fire that night that melted the spout from the kettle...there is nothing that would contradict the remains of several small or midsize fires made over days or weeks without cleaning in between, and theres no confirmation of Abberlines spout theory from Barnett,...one of few people who might have known the state of that kettle from the night before.

Remnants in the fire means incompletely burned artifacts...in the case of the fabric, that almost ensures the fire was not hot and bright when it was placed on it...otherwise it would be consumed leaving only ash that would be impossible for them to determine was once black velvet fabric. The hat rim was found,...most assume that was a wire metal frame that was used to maintain a top hat shape....I think hat rim could well mean hat fabric on a rim too....in which case it wouldnt have been completely burned either.

Cheers Jon.

[FrankO]

Does he only make flaps when he is sure he will have some time, like in room 13? If so, why did he envision the backyard in Hanbury a more secure location than Mitre Square in its darkest corner?

If the actual reason was time, that's a question only the Ripper himself could have answered. He seems to have been bolder and more eager in the case of Chapman than in any of the others, so that may have been the reason.

Seems to me that before Mary Kelly the "mutilations" were what he did that suited him at the time to obtain access to the victims internal abdominal organs. Most of whats done to Mary served no such purpose.

Again, who's to say what he would have done if he had more time and privacy, what he would have done to satisfy more than what could be satisfied out in the streets. Attacking other female/feminine parts like buttocks, breasts and thighs, altogether take this female apart, obliterate her completely?

The best, Mike!
Frank

[Mitch Rowe]

And if Im gonna copy cat the ripper how do I know wich victim to copy from? If the copy cat picked Chapman then they must have thought of the plan at that time because unless MJK is there Chapman is the oddball.

And why on earth would anyone want to copy cat a guy who would have certainly felt alot of pain if caught? And why not just kill her in the street or kill her and hide the body.

It would be better to just have an unsolved unrelated murder while police are busy on the Ripper affair.

Copying the Ripper isnt very smart. But if someone did they would have to be a genius to begin with.

[Sam Flynn]

Thats why the idea the flaps were a Ripper signature based on Annies and Marys case...and them being absent in Kates case, seems odd.

Not if his actual "signature" was simply to get into the victims' innards by any means he could, Mike.

[Jon Guy]

So by your response you dont envision that the time it would take to make flaps vs the time it takes to "rip" someone open wouldnt be a factor that the killer might weigh?

Obviously, self-preservation would figure somewhere on his list but I`m guessing it would also have been very tricky cutting out panels in the darkness of Mitre Sq, and if he couldn`t see it, why not the faster, long cut.

[FrankO]

Even though the information may have been in the press before, still the copy cat has to remember and put it all into practice including the actual murder without fooling doctors or getting caught! I would suspect he/she would have to have a stack of newspapers to make sure they could pull it off. Not only that but the body positions appear to be very similar. It took me a while and I had to use a 3d dummy to figure out Annies position from the inquest.
Plus the copy cat has to know that things like body position are important clues.

What happens is it becomes evident there is really no question about it.

EDIT>>> So what we are talking about if MJK is a copy cat then its even more spectacular then the Ripper crimes themselves!

You're right, Mitch, the next question should be: how likely was it for someone to gather all the information regarding the Ripper case, then remember it all and then carry it out?

I don't know. The press coverage on Eddowes' kidney seems comparable to Chapman's flaps of belly wall having been cut away, but still half a kidney was sent to Lusk. Was it sent by the Ripper? Quite possibly. Still, as I've written in two of my previous posts on this thread (and many others in the past), I'm inclined to believe MJK fell victim to JtR and not to some copy-cat.

All the best,
Frank

It was the visibilty, Mike. He could see what he was doing in Hanbury St and Millers Court.

Thats a good answer Jon,... if we assume there was any light to speak of in room 13 at the time. We dont know it was ever re-illuminated after the light was doused at 1:15-1:30am.

So by your response you dont envision that the time it would take to make flaps vs the time it takes to "rip" someone open wouldnt be a factor that the killer might weigh?

Remember, until Mary Kelly, he worked outdoors with no guarantee of any light and lots of possibilities of being caught in the act or while leaving. His behaviors should be considered differently based on that environmental data. Were some acts chosen for the speed, or based on the impression he had on his likely time available?

If so, my contention is that there should have been very little assessed difference in the probable time that he might have with Annie or Kate....it was dawn when he leaves Hanbury and an open square with 3 entrances isnt secure either. Yet one had skin flaps, one didnt.

Best regards.

[Mitch Rowe]

It was the visibilty, Mike. He could see what he was doing in Hanbury St and Millers Court.

Visibility/Lack of time/Couldnt get in the fence.

Any or all these things could be a reason. Or something else. The fact is Jack did something different and unexpected. He took a chance it seems.

[Mitch Rowe]

Keep asking yourself those questions Mike. If the reason isnt because of the Stride affair then theres another reason. If you really believe Stride is not a JTR victim then Eddowes must be the key.

[Jon Guy]

Would the killers guess as to his potential overall time available affect the methodology of the killers choice for "entrance" to the abdomen?

It was the visibilty, Mike. He could see what he was doing in Hanbury St and Millers Court.

"The only question relevant to this thread would be: could or couldn't the public have known about the belly flaps in Chapman's case before MJK was butchered? As you've pointed out yourself, this fact was disclosed in some of the newspapers, which neutralizes the 'flap argument' as a clincher for MJK being a Ripper victim. It just remains an interesting similarity with Chapman's case."

Aside from whether we agree on some of the ancillary points Frank, I would agree with your position above.

Any time something is cited as being integral to the killers probable character or a signature of his probable involvement, it has to then be assessed objectively whether the circumstances of the individual murders themselves could have affected those signatures from being present in other cases. ie....interruption at Berner resulting in no mutilations.

Would the killers guess as to his potential overall time available affect the methodology of the killers choice for "entrance" to the abdomen? Does he slit upwards and make a large cut with Kate because its faster than flaps....if so, why is he in more of a hurry there than he was at Hanbury? Does he only make flaps when he is sure he will have some time, like in room 13? If so, why did he envision the backyard in Hanbury a more secure location than Mitre Square in its darkest corner?

Seems to me that before Mary Kelly the "mutilations" were what he did that suited him at the time to obtain access to the victims internal abdominal organs. Most of whats done to Mary served no such purpose.

Best regards Frank.

[Mitch Rowe]

Even though the information may have been in the press before, still the copy cat has to remember and put it all into practice including the actual murder without fooling doctors or getting caught! I would suspect he/she would have to have a stack of newspapers to make sure they could pull it off. Not only that but the body positions appear to be very similar. It took me a while and I had to use a 3d dummy to figure out Annies position from the inquest.
Plus the copy cat has to know that things like body position are important clues.

What happens is it becomes evident there is really no question about it.

EDIT>>> So what we are talking about if MJK is a copy cat then its even more spectacular then the Ripper crimes themselves!

[FrankO]

If making skin flaps instead of larger openings made things easier or more efficient, or faster, why didnt he do that with Kate? And if its slower doing that, or just equally as fast as a larger incision would be, why would he bother doing it again after Hanbury?

I admire your efforts to find answers for everything, but I think you're making things unnecessarily difficult, Mike. It's a fact that flaps of belly wall were cut away from both Chapman and Kelly, it's a fact that JtR made one long cut in Eddowes' case. If you accept that Eddowes was killed by the same man as Nichols and Chapman, then he must have had some reason to cut her open in one long cut. Maybe it just felt good to him at the time, maybe he felt he had less time, maybe it was too dark, or whatever.

The only question relevant to this thread would be: could or couldn't the public have known about the belly flaps in Chapman's case before MJK was butchered? As you've pointed out yourself, this fact was disclosed in some of the newspapers, which neutralizes the 'flap argument' as a clincher for MJK being a Ripper victim. It just remains an interesting similarity with Chapman's case.

Cheers,
Frank