Definitely canonical

[FrankO]

But with Eddowes, the kidney was the target, and the clothing described as being on Eddowes at the time, which was many layers of skirts and an apron, made one long cut through the clothing necessary to gain accessability to the inner abdomen.

Hi Joan,

I have two remarks here. First, I don't think that we can say with any amount of certainty that the Ripper knew beforehand that he was going to take a kidney, which is what you seem to be saying. Secondly, even though the Ripper cut her clothes, I'm not sure he made the long cut on Eddowes' body through her clothing. The fact that he 'neatly' cut around the navel supports the notion that he didn't. To me it seems more likely that he cut her waisband in order to be able to easily lift her skirts.

It was just a matter of practicality and time in which method was used, but the object was to mutilate the body, and perhaps take a trophy.

I completely agree with you there. I think the Ripper was practica and to-the-point and that taking trophies wasn't necessarily his main objective.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

I can never buy into that. If that's what happened, then Mary must've given her consent to be completely ripped up to her killer. She would've screamed the house down and fought for her life.

Hi M&P,

The way the cut on her right thumb and abrasions on the back of that hand are described by Dr Bond does infer that she was conscious. But because these wounds are the only wounds described that way, it seems to me that MJK's defence was very short-lived and only a matter of seconds. So, in my view, at some point she realised what was going to happen (perhaps she woke up), put up her right hand in defence, maybe cried 'Oh murder' and then it was over.

As for a copycat, that's ridiculous and next to impossible for someone who hadn't murdered and mutilated a person before to do that amount of extensive damage, and the only mutilator of that caliber, or mutilator at all, who was operating at the time was the Ripper.

Although I'm inlined to believe MJK was a Ripper victim, there are examples of 'normal' people who inflicted a comparable amount of extensive damage when they first murdered someone. I believe Buck Ruxton is such an example.

All the best,
Frank

[perrymason]

Frank, thanks for re-iterating my point on the state of consciousness with Mary, the left arm and hand wounds suggest she used that arm to fend off slashes.

In terms of the noise she might make, I agree, there would be some, thats why I dont believe Mary was being killed when "oh-murder" is heard...nothing is heard following that by 2 witnesses alerted by the call. And again, the phrase had known, benign usage during that period.

I think the attack began while she was asleep, or semi so....so if she called "oh-murder", which I believe was Mary, then I dont think her attack started until some time had passed from that of the call out.

Im not sure on a point here regarding the thread premise....is the contention that Annie and Mary were killed by a single person and he is the killer around whose neck that Canonical Group was hung, or that he just opted out of making skin flaps with Kate? Before the available time is mentioned in Kates case, we dont know there was any more time taken in the backyard at Hanbury than was in Mitre Square.

It seems to me that to use this aspect of the crime as a specific Ripper signature, a crime thats committed between the 2 flap removal murders that omits that signature would be a suspect inclusion. In which case you start down a road that suggests Mary Kelly is a more likely inclusion than Kate, which by the evidence shown in 2 murders prior to her murder, she fits the profile and signatures of the man that killed Polly and Annie in far more ways than Mary does.

I know that in order to make a killer fit the profile of the type that would be logical based on the Canonical Group he must have no fixed operational MO, nor preferred organs, he can change almost any aspect of the murders he commits arbitrarily, so that guy might make flaps, then not, and then do so again.

I guess the difference in my perspective is that Im not looking for that kind of man personally...Im looking for one or the evidence of one that would fit 3 almost identical murders. A guy who was different than the men that stabbed women in unsolved murders during that time, or one that made Torso's....or the one that enjoyed making bloody messes.

Maybe some kills involved 2 men, and some kills involved 1 man that was also part of the 2 man team...so even when we see their work separately, the same kinds of actions are present.

Best regards all.

[Sam Flynn]

I know that in order to make a killer fit the profile of the type that would be logical based on the Canonical Group he must have no fixed operational MO, nor preferred organs, he can change almost any aspect of the murders he commits arbitrarily, so that guy might make flaps, then not, and then do so again.

I don't see that we should be surprised if his MO (or "signature", if you will) wasn't "fixed" to that extent, Mike. Heck, there were several long cuts made in Polly Nichols' abdomen, but only one in Eddowes' - who was unique in the series, if we were to focus on this single criterion. However, not many would argue against the hypothesis that both Polly and Kate died by the same hand.

[perrymason]

I don't see that we should be surprised if his MO (or "signature", if you will) wasn't "fixed" to that extent, Mike. Heck, there were several long cuts made in Polly Nichols' abdomen, but only one in Eddowes' - who was unique in the series, if we were to focus on this single criterion. However, not many would argue against the hypothesis that both Polly and Kate died by the same hand.

Thats why the idea the flaps were a Ripper signature based on Annies and Marys case...and them being absent in Kates case, seems odd. If he makes skin flaps with victims who he abdominally mutilates and takes organs from, why didnt he with Kate? He makes time to remove a section of cloth from her...how long would these flaps take to make? Might that technique have been faster for him?

If a killer goes out assuming his killing will be made outdoors in places where he might be disturbed or caught, why wouldnt he have a preferred sequence of actions? Since he needs to be efficient in his onsite timing I would imagine a "routine" that he feels confident with would be a great help in that regard.

Build in pauses with the activity, uncertainty, spontaneity, ...calculating, estimating,...you lose seconds which could get you caught. So you do what you know you can do in a short time, you get the victim in a state where you can commit the acts quickly....semi-conscious on the ground, and you quickly execute a sequence of actions that will result in a dead woman and an open abdomen.

If making skin flaps instead of larger openings made things easier or more efficient, or faster, why didnt he do that with Kate? And if its slower doing that, or just equally as fast as a larger incision would be, why would he bother doing it again after Hanbury?

Cheers Sam

[FrankO]

Frank, thanks for re-iterating my point on the state of consciousness with Mary, the left arm and hand wounds suggest she used that arm to fend off slashes.

Hi Mike,

As you know, I don't agree with you on the wounds in the left arm being suggestive of her consciousness, but that's perhaps for another thread.

Before the available time is mentioned in Kates case, we dont know there was any more time taken in the backyard at Hanbury than was in Mitre Square.

You're right in saying that we don't know if more time was actually taken in Hanbury Street, but we do know that the accepted time frame for Hanbury Street was larger than that of Mitre Square. So, he did have more time on his hands - and knife. Furthermore, maybe the fact that it was light in Hanbury Street was of influence. Who knows?

I know that in order to make a killer fit the profile of the type that would be logical based on the Canonical Group he must have no fixed operational MO, nor preferred organs, he can change almost any aspect of the murders he commits arbitrarily, so that guy might make flaps, then not, and then do so again.

I think that he would (and did) have a preferred MO and that the big picture would be much the same, but that details could be (and were) different. We simply don't know whatever the Ripper would have done to a victim if he had more privacy and more than just a few minutes with the chance of anybody walking into the scene at any given moment.

....or the one that enjoyed making bloody messes.

I guess that, by that, you mean MJK's killer. For one, I don't know if, whoever killed MJK, actually enjoyed making bloody messes. It may just as well have been a simple result of the fact that, if it was JtR, he was presented with a new situation in comparison to his previous murders: MJK was already lying down before he launched his initial attack. If so, things might very well not have gone as smoothly as they did in the previous cases.

Secondly, I don't know how much bloodier MJK's murder was in comparison to Eddowes'. She was left in a rather big pool of blood as well, judging from the sketch and reports. Especially the top back of her clothes was drenched in blood.

Thirdly, if it was the Ripper's intention to kill his victims in such a way that he wouldn't get too much covered in blood, then he succeeded in that in MJK's case as well. However bloody it may have been, the blood couldn't bother him. He moved MJK's body away from the bloody right side of the bed, the blood on the wall and under the bed wouldn't bother him in the least. Plus, being in her room he had ample time to clean himself. Looking at it that way, I don't think the 'messyness' of the blood in MJK's case is such a big deal.

All the best,
Frank

[FrankO]

If making skin flaps instead of larger openings made things easier or more efficient, or faster, why didnt he do that with Kate? And if its slower doing that, or just equally as fast as a larger incision would be, why would he bother doing it again after Hanbury?

I admire your efforts to find answers for everything, but I think you're making things unnecessarily difficult, Mike. It's a fact that flaps of belly wall were cut away from both Chapman and Kelly, it's a fact that JtR made one long cut in Eddowes' case. If you accept that Eddowes was killed by the same man as Nichols and Chapman, then he must have had some reason to cut her open in one long cut. Maybe it just felt good to him at the time, maybe he felt he had less time, maybe it was too dark, or whatever.

The only question relevant to this thread would be: could or couldn't the public have known about the belly flaps in Chapman's case before MJK was butchered? As you've pointed out yourself, this fact was disclosed in some of the newspapers, which neutralizes the 'flap argument' as a clincher for MJK being a Ripper victim. It just remains an interesting similarity with Chapman's case.

Cheers,
Frank

[Mitch Rowe]

Even though the information may have been in the press before, still the copy cat has to remember and put it all into practice including the actual murder without fooling doctors or getting caught! I would suspect he/she would have to have a stack of newspapers to make sure they could pull it off. Not only that but the body positions appear to be very similar. It took me a while and I had to use a 3d dummy to figure out Annies position from the inquest.
Plus the copy cat has to know that things like body position are important clues.

What happens is it becomes evident there is really no question about it.

EDIT>>> So what we are talking about if MJK is a copy cat then its even more spectacular then the Ripper crimes themselves!

[perrymason]

"The only question relevant to this thread would be: could or couldn't the public have known about the belly flaps in Chapman's case before MJK was butchered? As you've pointed out yourself, this fact was disclosed in some of the newspapers, which neutralizes the 'flap argument' as a clincher for MJK being a Ripper victim. It just remains an interesting similarity with Chapman's case."

Aside from whether we agree on some of the ancillary points Frank, I would agree with your position above.

Any time something is cited as being integral to the killers probable character or a signature of his probable involvement, it has to then be assessed objectively whether the circumstances of the individual murders themselves could have affected those signatures from being present in other cases. ie....interruption at Berner resulting in no mutilations.

Would the killers guess as to his potential overall time available affect the methodology of the killers choice for "entrance" to the abdomen? Does he slit upwards and make a large cut with Kate because its faster than flaps....if so, why is he in more of a hurry there than he was at Hanbury? Does he only make flaps when he is sure he will have some time, like in room 13? If so, why did he envision the backyard in Hanbury a more secure location than Mitre Square in its darkest corner?

Seems to me that before Mary Kelly the "mutilations" were what he did that suited him at the time to obtain access to the victims internal abdominal organs. Most of whats done to Mary served no such purpose.

Best regards Frank.

[Jon Guy]

Would the killers guess as to his potential overall time available affect the methodology of the killers choice for "entrance" to the abdomen?

It was the visibilty, Mike. He could see what he was doing in Hanbury St and Millers Court.

[Mitch Rowe]

Keep asking yourself those questions Mike. If the reason isnt because of the Stride affair then theres another reason. If you really believe Stride is not a JTR victim then Eddowes must be the key.

[Mitch Rowe]

It was the visibilty, Mike. He could see what he was doing in Hanbury St and Millers Court.

Visibility/Lack of time/Couldnt get in the fence.

Any or all these things could be a reason. Or something else. The fact is Jack did something different and unexpected. He took a chance it seems.

[perrymason]

It was the visibilty, Mike. He could see what he was doing in Hanbury St and Millers Court.

Thats a good answer Jon,... if we assume there was any light to speak of in room 13 at the time. We dont know it was ever re-illuminated after the light was doused at 1:15-1:30am.

So by your response you dont envision that the time it would take to make flaps vs the time it takes to "rip" someone open wouldnt be a factor that the killer might weigh?

Remember, until Mary Kelly, he worked outdoors with no guarantee of any light and lots of possibilities of being caught in the act or while leaving. His behaviors should be considered differently based on that environmental data. Were some acts chosen for the speed, or based on the impression he had on his likely time available?

If so, my contention is that there should have been very little assessed difference in the probable time that he might have with Annie or Kate....it was dawn when he leaves Hanbury and an open square with 3 entrances isnt secure either. Yet one had skin flaps, one didnt.

Best regards.

[FrankO]

Even though the information may have been in the press before, still the copy cat has to remember and put it all into practice including the actual murder without fooling doctors or getting caught! I would suspect he/she would have to have a stack of newspapers to make sure they could pull it off. Not only that but the body positions appear to be very similar. It took me a while and I had to use a 3d dummy to figure out Annies position from the inquest.
Plus the copy cat has to know that things like body position are important clues.

What happens is it becomes evident there is really no question about it.

EDIT>>> So what we are talking about if MJK is a copy cat then its even more spectacular then the Ripper crimes themselves!

You're right, Mitch, the next question should be: how likely was it for someone to gather all the information regarding the Ripper case, then remember it all and then carry it out?

I don't know. The press coverage on Eddowes' kidney seems comparable to Chapman's flaps of belly wall having been cut away, but still half a kidney was sent to Lusk. Was it sent by the Ripper? Quite possibly. Still, as I've written in two of my previous posts on this thread (and many others in the past), I'm inclined to believe MJK fell victim to JtR and not to some copy-cat.

All the best,
Frank

[Jon Guy]

So by your response you dont envision that the time it would take to make flaps vs the time it takes to "rip" someone open wouldnt be a factor that the killer might weigh?

Obviously, self-preservation would figure somewhere on his list but I`m guessing it would also have been very tricky cutting out panels in the darkness of Mitre Sq, and if he couldn`t see it, why not the faster, long cut.