Definitely canonical

[Malcolm X]

Kate has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with a long cut, and biological material from her abdomen and pelvic area is taken. Her face is cut and disfigured.

Those acts, perhaps consecutive ones, reveal a definite pattern of activity that in each case, seems almost identical.

you'd need some very convincing arguement to say that M.Kelly wasn't a ripper victim, all the evidence points towards her being his last..

you stand a far better chance, with Stride not as a Ripper victim.

They weren't actually, Mike - the details were suppressed to a large extent, and only reported in one or two rather obscure newspapers. Most, if not all, the accounts of the Chapman inquest I can recall based their information on what was written in the "big three" - the Times, the Telegraph and the Star - none of which carried the "three flaps" story.

I do know that Phillips was forced to discuss those specific details during the Inquest on Sept 19th, and I have read press accounts that mention skin flaps, although I dont recall that a specific number of them was given.

If nothing else, in the same way that Hutchinson might have learned of Sarah Lewis's Wideawake Man.. by attending the Inquest himself.

Everything that was done to Mary that had already appeared in previous Ripper crimes was covered in the press accounts of the various murders and Inquests. Including a so called Ripper threat letter suggesting taking a heart.

Polly surprised them, Annie intrigued them, and Kates wounds were not really unexpected based on those 2 previous kills. Marys killing baffled them. The best scenario most could offer is that he went crazy while killing her...due to the very odd and inexplicable things done in that room. Things they would not expect would follow Kates murder. Including the location itself.

Even if we could compare the technique used in the case of Annies and Marys skin flaps,.... where did he start cutting, what was the exact shape and number of the flaps...triangles/rectangles/squares, ...how deep did he penetrate..how thick was the layer he removes, did he place it skin down or up when he sets it aside, .......it still wouldnt ensure that both were by the same man unless the above answers dictated that.

Marys murder is markedly dissimilar to Annies, and is within a group of 3 murders within the C5 that match each other remarkably well in both style and activity. The commonalities that are shared by those three women are not shared with the murder of Mary Kelly.

With Mary, she is attacked with a knife while conscious undressed in her own room, she has her entire midsection hollowed out and the contents placed around the corpse and bed, she has damage done to her thighs that likely took as long as most entire attacks, murders and mutilations he is assigned previously, and the focus shown in the 3 prior victims mentioned is absent in this case.

I believe the contemporary investigators were correct about one thing here.....if Mary was killed by Jack, he was by necessity based on Marys murder, deeper in some psychosis than he was when he killed the abdominally mutilated victims, because the behaviors and acts are far less comprehendable with her killing. With Polly and Annie, medical opinion suggested they were cut open to have things inside taken. Not that they were cut for fun.

All the best Sam

[Sam Flynn]

In fact the evidence says, if it was all Jacks doing, he kills 3 times almost identically.

No, he doesn't, Mike - there are significant variations in the wounds, even in your "Canonical Three". His aim, however, seems to have been to get his hands inside a woman's guts by any means possible, and to cut bits out. He seems to have failed with Nichols on the latter count, but he later made up for it - and on a grand scale, in Kelly's case.

[Sam Flynn]

As has been ignored many times, Annie's skin flaps were common knowledge for some time before Mary was killed.

They weren't actually, Mike - the details were suppressed to a large extent, and only reported in one or two rather obscure newspapers. Most, if not all, the accounts of the Chapman inquest I can recall based their information on what was written in the "big three" - the Times, the Telegraph and the Star - none of which carried the "three flaps" story.

Look at the wider picture. What's the reason that none of the victims were mutilated in exactly the same manner? Answer - we're not dealing with a robot, but a very naughty boy...

Of course none are identical, he killed in unique situations each time, with likely varying degrees of comfort.

But you cannot say that there are not clear indications that 3 of the women within the Canonical Group are very closely matched in all facets of the attack and murder characteristics that essentially dictated a nickname for the killer.

Polly, Annie and Kate are eerily similar murders and the only thing separating them are unique acts that are included in addition to the pre-existing acts and signatures present in the previous victims murder.

Polly has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with some cuts.

Annie has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with skin flaps, and biological material from her abdomen and pelvis area is taken.

Kate has her head almost cut off as the kill cut, she has her abdomen opened with a long cut, and biological material from her abdomen and pelvic area is taken. Her face is cut and disfigured.

Those acts, perhaps consecutive ones, reveal a definite pattern of activity that in each case, seems almost identical.

Its not that Jack killed 5 different ways Sam.......thats only the case if you buy the Canonical Group. In fact the evidence says, if it was all Jacks doing, he kills 3 times almost identically, once with a single slice, and then just revels in the act of cutting itself in his finale. The evidence that we can use to assess what it is that Jack likes to do is not within the confined view of a speculated tally.

Hes only unpredictable based on the C5. If thats an incorrect concept....which it is, then Jack may have killed many more people or he may have killed only some of who is accused of. If he kills less than 5, I think 2 or 3 within that group could easily be paired as being by one man.

Best regards Gareth.

Hi Mike,

You can only say this if you think that what JtR did to his outside victims was all that satisfied him. Perhaps that wasn't the case. We don't know. Furthermore, Mary's murder obviously did have focus we can attribute by actions. She was taken apart and obliterated. Degraded, dewomanised, depersonalised, dehumanised.

Obviously, it had nothing to do with peeling, skinning, the placing of the various organs and body parts or whatever. Mary's abdomen was opened up by cutting away flaps of skin, just like Annie Chapman's, in order to be able to get to the organs inside. Nothing more, nothing less.

All the best, Mike!
Frank

Hi Frank,

On your first paragraph above, I think that its a mistake to say that we dont know that he was unsatisfied with the acts that were performed outdoors at all, in fact we have senior medical opinion that suggests he acted in a manner so as to to obtain abdominal organs...so the flaps or a cut, no real difference in the application there.

He killed and opened the abdomens to take things...and he was never caught trying to take a few extra minutes to just cut away.

On the second, you cant really suggest that the flaps made with Marys abdomen flesh were done to aid accessing abdominal organs he will take with him, can you? He leaves every abdominal organ, even placing them about the body. You cant say the flaps were needed to remove and take her heart, you cant really say he does this because he feels the same sense of urgency that he did doing in in near daylight in a backyard overlooked by many neighbor windows, some stated as being open at the time.

You and David and Sam and others have noticed that a technique that is rare is used on 2 murders that are within the Canonical Group. The second and the 5th. Youve failed to account for the probability that if Marys killing was intended to look like a Ripper killing by copying some of his acts....of course not where he finds victims in this case, or how he starts the attack in the case, ...he would have at his disposal information prior to the murder that discusses the various things Jack does to women postmortem.

My contention has always been that Mary is probably not Jacks work ....due to circumstantial evidence, the significant evidence that suggests her killer knew her prior to this night, and the rationale for most of the injuries that are inflicted upon her, being some sort of entertainment for him.....but that her killing was made to appear like Jacks work to deflect suspicion as far away from her personal life as possible.

Just like screaming "another woman" has been killed in Berner Street suggested that a single throat wound is indicative of the serial killer at large who wasnt from the club. It wasnt...and still isnt.

All the best Frank.

[DVV]

Hi David,

What the flaps represent is the strong possibility that the man that killed Annie also killed Mary.....its not "evidence of". As has been ignored many times, Annie's skin flaps were common knowledge for some time before Mary was killed.The only thing done in Marys room that hadnt been in the papers before her death was cutting flesh from bone. An act that sits solitarily among the Canonical Group.

And the fact that we see this technique with Annie doesnt then mean it is only her killer who would do that...if he hadnt done it before anywhere, he learned it somewhere too.

Cheers David.

Hi Mike,
what kind of copy-cat killer he would have been...!
Able of copying not only Jack the Ripper, but also "Jack-the-flaps-of-skin-detacher."
Let me add incidentally that such an imitator wouldn't have forgotten to take the womb away.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Nothing to see]

Hi David,

What the flaps represent is the strong possibility that the man that killed Annie also killed Mary.....its not "evidence of". As has been ignored many times, Annie's skin flaps were common knowledge for some time before Mary was killed.The only thing done in Marys room that hadnt been in the papers before her death was cutting flesh from bone.

And the fact that we see this technique with Annie doesnt then mean it is only her killer who would do that...if he hadnt done it before anywhere, he learned it somewhere too.

Cheers David.

So you're saying a copy cat killer. Is there any evidence, anywhere, that this sort of behaviour existed in the 1880's?

Hi Nts,
quite the reverse.
The "flaps of skin detail", which links the murders of Chapman and Kelly, is an extremely solid evidence that MJK is a Ripper victim.

Amitiés,
David

Hi David,

What the flaps represent is the strong possibility that the man that killed Annie also killed Mary.....its not "evidence of". As has been ignored many times, Annie's skin flaps were common knowledge for some time before Mary was killed.The only thing done in Marys room that hadnt been in the papers before her death was cutting flesh from bone. An act that sits solitarily among the Canonical Group.

And the fact that we see this technique with Annie doesnt then mean it is only her killer who would do that...if he hadnt done it before anywhere, he learned it somewhere too.

Cheers David.

[FrankO]

Annie and Kates murderers had specific focus we can attribute by actions. Marys did not.

Hi Mike,

You can only say this if you think that what JtR did to his outside victims was all that satisfied him. Perhaps that wasn't the case. We don't know. Furthermore, Mary's murder obviously did have focus we can attribute by actions. She was taken apart and obliterated. Degraded, dewomanised, depersonalised, dehumanised.

Marys flaps are so that he could,....what......?

Obviously, it had nothing to do with peeling, skinning, the placing of the various organs and body parts or whatever. Mary's abdomen was opened up by cutting away flaps of skin, just like Annie Chapman's, in order to be able to get to the organs inside. Nothing more, nothing less.

All the best, Mike!
Frank

[DVV]

Well, that's not the proper thread for such a discussion. So let me just say quickly that I tend to include Martha Tabram in the frame, and that IMHO Annie Millwood could well have died from her injuries. In which case her attack should be considered a murder.
Just my current view of this eternal question ("How many?").

[Nothing to see]

So. How many?

[DVV]

I have to say I'm damn jealous of you being in Provence. Hope you're enjoying it.

I do. That's Jerusalem to me.
And I believe I could have cured Jack's soul with a real bouillabaisse and some bottles of rosé.
He wouldn't have killed 5. Nor 6.

Amitiés,
David

[Nothing to see]

I have to say I'm damn jealous of you being in Provence. Hope you're enjoying it.

The flaps of skin I didn't read before as being details that Jack did both.

I read them as 3 or 4 flaps of flesh being used to prove that the murders were committed by different people.

OK. One murderer. 5 victims. That's Jack. And definitely MJK.

[DVV]

I know, and agree. But that wasn't the point. The point is that the "flaps of skin detail" argues in favour of your opinion, not the contrary.

Amitiés,
David