Definitely canonical

[Mitch Rowe]

In actual fact Chapman's abdomen was accessed by removing four flaps of the belly wall, not three. Three are mentioned in situ, the fourth, with the navel, was taken away by the killer. This may or may not indicate some interest to the killer, especially when one considers that the navel was left on a flap of skin when the long cut to Eddowes abdomen was made.

Wolf.

This is true. But I think it was mentioned that part could have been attached to a part the ripper took with him? I will have to go back and study this again because either in the chapman case or the MJK case I think phillips describes putting the flaps back together and it was obvious a piece was missing. He called it "wanting".

We dont have any drawings or anything to actually show us what happened to these poor girls so we can only guess how it was done. When we dont exactly thats when I feel history becomes part of the equation. The fact that both doctors mention three flaps in any context has a certain value to me.

Its not merely the number itself wich disturbs me. Its tha act. I admit I was floored when first read about it in Chapmans case. I didnt even know about Bonds report at that time! Im a lifetime crime buff. I have been amazed and puzzled by murderers actions since I can remember. And in all my years I never heard/read or seen any kind of removing of the skin like that to get to the innards at least. I know the black dahlia had a chunk of meat cut from her leg and I know of a case where an SK killed prostitutes and at least one had a tattoo removed but not to get to organs.

So.. Coming into all this I thought I knew a thing or two about the criminal mind and after reading about the skin flaps it affected me as something peculiar. And right there at the scene! I can understand a guy like Dahmer needing to do it that way but I was expecting to see something like Eddowes.

OH.. And one more thing I want to mention. I dont exactly know how the professionals would connect any crimes but I refrain from giving the differences much value. Im not saying I ignore them. Im just saying they need a stronger case for themselves to be significant in the process.

[Malcolm X]

he ripped out her heart.... well this depends on the Ripper's motives, to me 5 murders dont make sense and neither does him ripping her up so badly and finally him stopping/ vanishing .... i wont comment here

anyway, sticking to this thread i promise to be a good boy this a C5 murder

but what we can talk about is.... why did her rip her up so badly/ destroy all of her sexuality.... he destroyed her lovely face, cut off her gorgeous breasts, removed her reproductive organs, and removed her sexy thighs........... is this madness, from a cold calculating intelligent killer, that left no clues, committed a perfect murder......i leave you guys to ponder this...

he did not butcher her for the sheer hell of it because he could...... his goal was to remove any traces of womanhood and to take her heart

i think, he was totally sane and in complete control of his emotions, look how the organs are carefully placed around the body and not thrown on the floor or bounced off the walls.... he was calm and he was on a mission!

[Malcolm X]

Im pretty sure that no other Ripper murder started with the killer slashing at a conscious womans face.

Your correct...dont read too much into the mutilations here, because excluding only one or two acts, all of the acts seen performed in that room were performed on other victims and reported in the press... with details.

I think a reasonable argument for Marys state could be that her killer, in attempting to re-create a Ripper scene once he realized he had killed the woman, performed acts that were not previously seen and serve no greater purpose than the resulting damage, and are uncharacteristic of Ripper acts in general.

For the most part, the man that killed, Annie and Kate cut where he had to in order that he accomplish a goal of obtaining organs. He cuts the throat to kill, and cuts the body to open and extract. Since Polly so closely matches those two in many respects, and yet she is the only one of the three killed openly in the street...that is the one murder that interruption may have played a part in.

The coroner at Pollys inquest suggested the very same thing....and related that to the next murder being in a backyard and successful with the organ theft.

Best regards.

it looks like Mary put up a fight, not only do we have ``oh murder`` but there are some defensive cuts on her fingers, plus the bed sheet was badly cut and covered in blood on the top right hand side, suggesting that Mary either covered her face with the sheet, like a frightened child scared of ghosts, or the sheet was covering her face, my guess is because she might have screamed ``oh murder``that she saw him coming, thus she tried to hide under the bed sheet and the ripper killed her through the sheet..... i find this totally horrible!

he either broke in, or he woke up, got out of her bed, put on his trousers... got his knife out and suddenly attacked her.... he cant get behind her, so this is a full frontal attack.... he dived on top of her, in a similar way to how G.Chapman attacked his lover ( an example only)

i dont think he strangled her, i think he ripped the sheet open with wild slashes, and then slit her throat, he probably then got off her, the bed sheet decended back over her face, and as usual he waited for his victim to bleed out under the sheet, hence it's soaked in blood. she died....... he flicked the bed sheet out of the way... back over to the right hand side and then he dragged her corpse back towards the left hand side of the bed..

then after death, he almost decapitated her like EDDOWES.... the arterial spray is over to the right hand side.... so maybe the bed sheet was too, i.e he slashed her throat and then moved the sheet out of the way while she was still alive.............we'll never know.

if anyone is saying this is a Copycat... dont you think that this a bit too extreme for a.... ``Mr, i've never killed anyone before Barnett type``?

dont try to PIGEONHOLE the Ripper... be careful of this, do not read too much into his mutilations....this killer was experienced and as the murder location shows.... he was brash, foolish, crazed and very devil may care, this killer has the personality traits of the ripper..but definitely not a beginner.... not a hope in hell!

in my opinion the Ripper gained the most self-confidence....... by fleeing the Stride murder scene, later on; he probably felt like ``Spring heeled Jack``

Im pretty sure that no other Ripper murder started with the killer slashing at a conscious womans face.

Your correct...dont read too much into the mutilations here, because excluding only one or two acts, all of the acts seen performed in that room were performed on other victims and reported in the press... with details.

I think a reasonable argument for Marys state could be that her killer, in attempting to re-create a Ripper scene once he realized he had killed the woman, performed acts that were not previously seen and serve no greater purpose than the resulting damage, and are uncharacteristic of Ripper acts in general.

For the most part, the man that killed, Annie and Kate cut where he had to in order that he accomplish a goal of obtaining organs. He cuts the throat to kill, and cuts the body to open and extract. Since Polly so closely matches those two in many respects, and yet she is the only one of the three killed openly in the street...that is the one murder that interruption may have played a part in.

The coroner at Pollys inquest suggested the very same thing....and related that to the next murder being in a backyard and successful with the organ theft.

Best regards.

[Malcolm X]

if anyone is saying this is a Copycat... dont you think that this a bit too extreme for a.... ``Mr, i've never killed anyone before Barnett type``?

dont try to PIGEONHOLE the Ripper... be careful of this, do not read too much into his mutilations....this killer was experienced and as the murder location shows.... he was brash, foolish, crazed and very devil may care, this killer has the personality traits of the ripper..but definitely not a beginner.... not a hope in hell!

in my opinion the Ripper gained the most self-confidence....... by fleeing the Stride murder scene, later on; he probably felt like ``Spring heeled Jack``

[Malcolm X]

is Mary part of the C5?.........Y...E....S
was MARY killed by JTR?.........N.....O
was MARY killed by JTR?.........Y...E...S
who was the Ripper?..............Y....O...U...R...S...E....L.. ..F

Ah, but what else was found alongside the uterus, tucked away under Kelly`s head ? The kidney`s !!! Exactly what was plundered from Eddowes. I reckon he put them to one side but moved Kelly`s body on top of them and took the heart by impulse instead.

Kelly may have been killed indoors but she could have picked her killer up out on the street as the other victims did.

I believe it was her breast Jon, although I dont recall specifically all that was under her head. The fact that it is left when taken twice before and even in a partial state is curious.

On her picking up a client.....what you would need is a single believed witness that either sees Mary go out, sees her out, or sees her return after 11:45 November 8th. You do not have that in Hutchinson.

If Mary didnt pick her client up while she was outside thought to be soliciting, its a far greater indicator that this wasnt Jack than the leaving of the uterus was. Or the myriad of superfluous cuts that were not made to achieve objectives as the vast majority of the previous victims presented demonstrably.

To take an abdominal organ, you enter the abdomen. If you cut something out of the way, thats functionally motivated mutilation.

If you sit and carve flesh from bone on one half of a limb, thats curiousity or some kind of dysfunctionally motivated mutilation. If you slash a face beyond the ability for it to be easily recognized, thats dysfunctional motivation at work.

The only such cuts that I see that precede Mary might be the facial wounds Kate gets, and the severing of 2ft of her colon to place between her arm and body.

Best regards Jon.

[Jon Guy]

a perfectly good uterus taken twice from Ripper victims is left under her head, not a very good copycat either. Let alone that this killer worked in the victims own room.

Ah, but what else was found alongside the uterus, tucked away under Kelly`s head ? The kidney`s !!! Exactly what was plundered from Eddowes. I reckon he put them to one side but moved Kelly`s body on top of them and took the heart by impulse instead.

Kelly may have been killed indoors but she could have picked her killer up out on the street as the other victims did.

Ah, my dear Mike,
we know you will never give up.
That's part of your charm!

Amitiés mon cher,
David

Thanks David, but thats only partially true....I will gladly give up my opinion should some evidence be discovered that makes that opinion untenable.

Since I believe the only thing that was done to Mary Kelly that hadnt been printed in the papers via the previous murders is the stripping of all tissue from a thigh,... and partially so the remaining one.....virtually every act seen done to Mary could be by a copy cat action.

And in some instances, like the evidence that suggests Marys wasnt unconscious while being attacked near her face with a knife, and that a perfectly good uterus taken twice from Ripper victims is left under her head, not a very good copycat either. Let alone that this killer worked in the victims own room.

My best regards as always David.

[Mitch Rowe]

Thanks Fish,
and apologies to Mitch...I admit I'm not fully in it these times...

Amitiés mon cher,
David

None needed dude! I figured between the skin flaps thing. And the two notches to the vertibrea. And the description of the cutting "Right Round" the neck thats three strikes and youre out!

And not only that. Phillips and Bond use nearly the exact same wording to describe the wounds!

I think its clear that Jack is able to leave patterns that we can use to nail him on some things. I personally think he is nailed with AC and MJK.

For me I no longer consider ACs and MJKs murders as separate. They are now combined and I use them as an indicator of Jacks patterns.

My opinion is its perfectly safe to do that. My opinion is Im very cautious about saying Im 100% sure of anything. In fact I will probably never be 100% sure about anything else in these cases. But as far as AC and MJK are concerned by multiplying the odds(A generalization here. Im giving the odds a far far greater chance than I truly believe. But I want to be sure.)of the flaps/vertibrea and neck wound desription I feel I can give myself a gift of 100% assurity at least for one single fact in these cases.

Concerning the odds of a copy-cat type thing going on with MJK. I would say its possible but highly highly unlikely. First of all a copy-cat is rarer than the real thing. Second he/she has to find it out in the press. Then they have to remember under great stress. And they have to act perfectly normal afterwards. It wouldnt work. The normal thing to do is cut and flee. Something like we see with Stride. But im not saying Stride is an indicator of a copy-cat. Just that if there were a copy-cat the best argument for that might be Stride.

[DVV]

Hi again,

Thanks for the replies to my post, but neither addressed the fact that Phillips was compelled to discuss the specific nature of her lower body injuries despite his protest on Sept 19th at Annies Inquest. He disclosed the wounds and acts he found were present, it is said, in detail.

That would indicate that the press release of the Inquest details on the 20th would have those remarks, and therefore be in the publics hands that same day.

Which means that anyone who read the paper would know that almost 2 months before Mary Kellys death that flaps of skin were cut from Annies abdomen.

As I said, you may think it unlikely that a killer used that information at Marys murder scene, but you cannot categorically say it wasnt used, with any proof to demonstrate that. Its unlikely that George Hutchinson knew of Sarah Lewis's statement before Marys Inquest on the Monday, but as in this situation, you cannot rule out that he acted Monday night based on the account of that sighting Monday afternoon. As long as the information is generally available before the actions in question are taken... it could have been used by the killer.

Which makes....as I said, the assertion that Mary was definitely a Canonical, premature at best.

A status she had before this thread existed.

No offense intended.

Best regards.

Ah, my dear Mike,
we know you will never give up.
That's part of your charm!

Amitiés mon cher,
David

just bear with me one more time.

mary jane kelly.... could be in the killers mind... Mary Matfelon and of course, later Mary Magdelane.... this ties in to the Whitechapel of the 1250 era, which is named after ``mary matfelon``

finally, his murders have resulted in the ultimate sacrilige, he has murdered a ``symbol`` of Mary Magdalene and removed her heart/ desercrated her body, who might have been; according to the scriptures a young prostiture ... this is one of my crazy theories, but please give this more than a casual glance...

the other murders are blood sacrafices and of course organs removed, which is a requirement for the occult.... but this theory needs loads of work, because these murders must form a pattern of some type that corresponds to an occult symbol..... not necessarily 2 triangles, or the V.P.

why only 5 murders, culminating in the total butchery and wiping out of all womanhood, of a young fertile woman called Mary, in an area called Whitechapel or Mary Matefelon..... and he killed her indoors, Mary Magdelane gave birth indoors... and Mary Kelly is posed very similar to childbirth

is this pure and utter coincidence?.... maybe, but by God it fires me up

i'm sorry for screwing up this thread, but i needed to grab your attention... if anyone is interested i will open another thread in a more suitable area

Yikes.

Its also a bit of a stretch to suggest that Kates death and Marys resembled each others. The facial wounds and a concept that any organ taken qualifies as an act of The Rippers are the only aspects that may broadly be considered commonalities....almost everything about her death is similar to Pollys and Annies,...not Marys.

At least her killer demonstrated a continuing interest in taking organs found in the abdomen...including the same one that was taken before.

Best regards.

[Malcolm X]

just bear with me one more time.

mary jane kelly.... could be in the killers mind... Mary Matfelon and of course, later Mary Magdelane.... this ties in to the Whitechapel of the 1250 era, which is named after ``mary matfelon``

finally, his murders have resulted in the ultimate sacrilige, he has murdered a ``symbol`` of Mary Magdalene and removed her heart/ desercrated her body, who might have been; according to the scriptures a young prostiture ... this is one of my crazy theories, but please give this more than a casual glance...

the other murders are blood sacrafices and of course organs removed, which is a requirement for the occult.... but this theory needs loads of work, because these murders must form a pattern of some type that corresponds to an occult symbol..... not necessarily 2 triangles, or the V.P.

why only 5 murders, culminating in the total butchery and wiping out of all womanhood, of a young fertile woman called Mary, in an area called Whitechapel or Mary Matefelon..... and he killed her indoors, Mary Magdelane gave birth indoors... and Mary Kelly is posed very similar to childbirth

is this pure and utter coincidence?.... maybe, but by God it fires me up

i'm sorry for screwing up this thread, but i needed to grab your attention... if anyone is interested i will open another thread in a more suitable area

Hi again,

Thanks for the replies to my post, but neither addressed the fact that Phillips was compelled to discuss the specific nature of her lower body injuries despite his protest on Sept 19th at Annies Inquest. He disclosed the wounds and acts he found were present, it is said, in detail.

That would indicate that the press release of the Inquest details on the 20th would have those remarks, and therefore be in the publics hands that same day.

Which means that anyone who read the paper would know that almost 2 months before Mary Kellys death that flaps of skin were cut from Annies abdomen.

As I said, you may think it unlikely that a killer used that information at Marys murder scene, but you cannot categorically say it wasnt used, with any proof to demonstrate that. Its unlikely that George Hutchinson knew of Sarah Lewis's statement before Marys Inquest on the Monday, but as in this situation, you cannot rule out that he acted Monday night based on the account of that sighting Monday afternoon. As long as the information is generally available before the actions in question are taken... it could have been used by the killer.

Which makes....as I said, the assertion that Mary was definitely a Canonical, premature at best.

A status she had before this thread existed.

No offense intended.

Best regards.