Definitely canonical

[Nothing to see]

Hi Nts,
quite the reverse.
The "flaps of skin detail", which links the murders of Chapman and Kelly, is an extremely solid evidence that MJK is a Ripper victim.

Amitiés,
David

Hey man. I believe MJK is a Jack get.

[DVV]

I do find it strange that people will want to argue because of flaps of skin that she wasn't Jack's.

Hi Nts,
quite the reverse.
The "flaps of skin detail", which links the murders of Chapman and Kelly, is an extremely solid evidence that MJK is a Ripper victim.

Amitiés,
David

[Nothing to see]

Of course MJK was Jack's. His 'masterpiece', if you will. I do find it strange that people will want to argue because of flaps of skin that she wasn't Jack's. Jack's approach, kill, then mutilate were his MO. I'm quite certain Jack was adaptable in what he performed and where. I'm sorry but trying to convince that MJK wasn't Jack's is a waste of time for me. Anyway.

He had the same amount of light in Miller's Ct as in Mitre Sq? U'm, it wasn't called Ripper's Corner because it was the brightest lit part. And I'm pretty sure, one of the gaslights wasn't working that night. You've got 3 storey warehouses closing the whole place in.

Why Hanbury St and Mitre Sq? Because that's where the pros led him. They knew the patch and I think Jack did also in a much less familiar way. He certainly knew how to navigate around the place. He knew how to get out and get home.

My last point. Copy cat killers? This, as far as I know, is a 20th century 'definition'. Are there any recorded cases that anyone knows of, from the 19th century or earlier, of people following other murders? I'd be interested to hear.

[Malcolm X]

Were nitpicking the minutia here....whats the reason that Kate was not mutilated like Mary but was like Annie?

because the ripper was disturbed at the Stride murder and M.Kelly was killed indoors, so he went over the top...... the odd one out here, is in fact the Stride murder!

the ripper would've had in his mind a maximum `` fail safe time`` ......... he would've thought, regardless of hearing anything or not, ``right it's time to get out of here`` and quite correct too, because Whitechapel or any large city is never truly dead at night; especially on the weekend....5 minutes at a murder site is about right, but definitely not 10 mins.

annie..............normal ripper

stride.............disturbed

kate..............nomal ripper

kelly...............all the time in the world !!!

[Malcolm X]

it's amazing the detail you guys get into, i really respect this.....Sam Flynn sais the right thing there.... dont forget that the Ripper will vary from day to day, from murder to murder...he's not a robot..

you guys show loads of enthusiasm , keep it up... because i might need your help soon......... to me this KELLY murder is wrong, but i need guys who are good researchers, have a keen eye for detail.

i think that you might have to accept that Kelly was butchered so badly; compared to the others, because he was safe indoors and had loads of time.

there was a large month gap, so i think he went in search of a suitable last victim; a few weeks before and maybe he spotted KELLY the previous week... not sure...

it's his motives for killing that now concern me, there's something not right in this KELLY murder, she looks posed and her organs too carefully placed about her body. why are her eyes undamaged...this is very strange for a killer who was supposedly slashing wildly at her face!

[Mitch Rowe]

Its really simple. The chances of a PC patrolling the backyard of 29 hanbury are slim.

But whatever the reason the ultimate question is why Eddowes? Why not wait for the right situation? I can hardly believe JTR just happened to go nuts in the right place. He must have had chances with others and decided it was too risky.

[Sam Flynn]

Were nitpicking the minutia here....whats the reason that Kate was not mutilated like Mary but was like Annie?

Look at the wider picture. What's the reason that none of the victims were mutilated in exactly the same manner? Answer - we're not dealing with a robot, but a very naughty boy...

Were nitpicking the minutia here....whats the reason that Kate was not mutilated like Mary but was like Annie?

Annie and Kates murderers had specific focus we can attribute by actions. Marys did not.

The coroner in Pollys case, and a senior medical opinion on Annies case suggests the abdominal cuts were to enter the abdomen to obtain organs,...they assume the ones that were taken. Thats why Annie had flaps....to access abdominal organs to take...and why Kate had a slash...to do the same.

Marys flaps are so that he could,....what......peel her thigh easier? Get at the uterus he places under her head easier? Remove her heart? The beginning of skinning her? To access the kidneys that he leaves easier? To take home to smoke and dry out to eat like Jerky? To repeat an action that was taken by Jack 2 months earlier, so the murder might appear like a Ripper act?

Cheers again Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Before we assume he is incapable of structure and order and deliberate actions there should be some real proof of that.

I'm not assuming anything of the sort, Mike - besides, lack of structure does not mean lack of deliberation. He wasn't like a butcher, preparing cuts of meat in a methodical manner so as to make them presentable, and to ensure that the thickness of his steaks conform to a cost/benefit model. The important thing for the killer, I'm sure, was just getting "stuck in", and the manner in which he achieved that would have been entirely secondary to his aims.

[Sam Flynn]

Richardson isnt necessarily untouchable on his timing as you know, so Ill reserve opinion there, at least I didnt misquote you as saying sun had risen........but based on the above, would your contention be that available light was a factor for the killer on when he might use the skin flap technique, as Jon's is?

I'm sure the ambient light played as much a factor in the manner of opening Mary's abdomen as it did in Chapman's, Mike.

The implication would then be that Marys room was approximately as bright an area to work in as the backyard at Hanbury was at near daybreak. Something Id contest myself, based on the lack of light in the room from 1:30am until at least Cox comes in around 3.

Cox never entered the room, though, did she? Besides, if Mary died after 3, there was nobody around to see even the merest chink of light escape via the rudimentary "curtains" on the windows.

I cant see a murderer starting a light after just slashing a woman to death.

I don't see why not. Anyhow, there was a fire which would have provided more than adequate illumination within the room, without necessarily leeching its light noticeably into the "courtyard".

The proximity of Marys windows to the courtyard where Mary Ann passed back and forth is such that she would have had opportunity to see light a few times after 1:30am, and didnt report seeing any, even though she faced the windows diagonally while leaving the court.

She might have had her head tucked down against the rain, or she simply might not have noticed. Besides, as I've said before, Cox was hardly keeping Number 13 under surveillance.

Time and lack of light no doubt conspired to force her killer to improvise. We aren't necessarily talking about preferences here, Mike - it's more a case of expediency or whim, I'd suggest.

I think his perception of what time he may have had in Mitre Square should not be much different than what he was likely to get at Hanbury near daybreak.....and I dont think Kates murder scene was that much darker than Marys. I think light and time are valid reasons why he skips the flaps with Kate....but I dont see them as compelling reasons. Particularly with time.

If he first does this with Annie, its not because he thinks thats a safe spot for some extra cuts to remove flaps to access the abdomen, or because its light enough to do that, he likely does it cause thats how he gets into womens abdomens quickly. When he has a similar scenario some weeks later, he opts to cut it open without flaps.....and when he next strikes, in likely poor lighting, he returns to flaps.

It doesnt jive. Lets not assume that everything we can see is a random coincidental facet of the investigation....like with Annie, he just decides to cut flaps, then he just decides to slit Kate,....then he happens to do flaps again with Mary.

Before we assume he is incapable of structure and order and deliberate actions there should be some real proof of that.

Cheers Gareth

In fact, Mike, the sun had not yet risen, but it would have been comparatively light even though the sun was still below the horizon. Indeed, Richardson's testimony confirms that it was bright enough to see all around the yard quite some time before Annie was killed.

Richardson isnt necessarily untouchable on his timing as you know, so Ill reserve opinion there, at least I didnt misquote you as saying sun had risen........but based on the above, would your contention be that available light was a factor for the killer on when he might use the skin flap technique, as Jon's is?

The implication would then be that Marys room was approximately as bright an area to work in as the backyard at Hanbury was at near daybreak. Something Id contest myself, based on the lack of light in the room from 1:30am until at least Cox comes in around 3.

Id have far less trouble picturing a killer doing his dirty deed while a candle burned, but Id have trouble swallowing a murderer lighting the candle to see where he is cutting. I cant see a murderer starting a light after just slashing a woman to death.

The proximity of Marys windows to the courtyard where Mary Ann passed back and forth is such that she would have had opportunity to see light a few times after 1:30am, and didnt report seeing any, even though she faced the windows diagonally while leaving the court.

Best regards Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I realize that if the goal is to enter the abdomen, slitting it open or removing skin flaps to access it achieves the same objective....but I would think if we are talking about the same killer of the 3 women most prominent in this argument, the 2 women that had skin flaps removed and the one in between them that didnt.....there should be a logical or comprehendable reason why the flaps werent used with Kate.

Time and lack of light no doubt conspired to force her killer to improvise. We aren't necessarily talking about preferences here, Mike - it's more a case of expediency or whim, I'd suggest.

[Sam Flynn]

according to some calculations by Sam and others, actual daybreak had not occurred yet in Hanbury.

In fact, Mike, the sun had not yet risen, but it would have been comparatively light even though the sun was still below the horizon. Indeed, Richardson's testimony confirms that it was bright enough to see all around the yard quite some time before Annie was killed.

I was just covering my arse Mike. It was a conscious effort, my friend.

There was a candle in 13 Millers Court, and half an hour before Chapman was killed John Richardson said it was light enough to see all over the place.

Hi again Jon,

There was half a candle in room 13, and it had been bought days before...and according to some calculations by Sam and others, actual daybreak had not occurred yet in Hanbury. Just covering my own hindquarters Jon.

Sam, I realize that if the goal is to enter the abdomen, slitting it open or removing skin flaps to access it achieves the same objective....but I would think if we are talking about the same killer of the 3 women most prominent in this argument, the 2 women that had skin flaps removed and the one in between them that didnt.....there should be a logical or comprehendable reason why the flaps werent used with Kate.

Jon said available light...I dont think an assumption of much or any real light in room 13 is warranted. I dont see Annie or Marys death having significant advantages with light, nor Annies with time, as compares with Kates. So how about for speed sake...I cant see any reason why he would imagined he had more time at Hanbury than he had in Mitre Square. One is more precise and laborious, and as such, longer to perform. Yet Annies killer chose that method, Marys chose that method, and Kates killer didnt. And we have to assume at this point that Kates killer didnt know he only had 8 minutes....so he just acted as swiftly as the tasks and conditions would allow.

Why would there be a difference to him when he uses the flaps method? Just an arbitrary decision?...possible not probable due to the noteworthy differences in time and labor. Is there some definitive advantage to using that method in certain circumstances....would they be related to light or time?

One thing that can be factored at this point is that before Kate, no-one in the press had reported a kidney theft.....but before Marys skin flaps, there were printed reports of those same acts available for some time before her murder.

Best regards all.