ORIGINAL doors in Miller's court

[Debra A]

Richard, out of interest; is there a problem with taking Roberts description literally? Does it conflict with any other descriptions?

Where do you have the narrow first floor passage situated on your model?

[Wickerman]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

Nothing switched Dave, the Mitchell case merely confirms what Prater told the court. That she lived in rm 20, over the shed, which faced Dorset St.
Prater also noticed the lodging-house light was out, which she believed meant it was past 4 O'clock.
We have a photo of Dorset St. showing the huge lodging-house lights hanging out front.
Room 20 was out front, and overlooked Dorset St.

[richardh]

It could provide lots of clues but it is also vague enough to be ambiguous!
It was on the first floor = nice and clear
Approach to it up miller's court = well we know he means you get to in from walking from Dorset street into the passageway and there is a door at some point up that passageway BEFORE you enter the court proper and before you get to the door of #13
And then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left = Here the ambiguity starts! Do you go through the door and are met with the foot of the stairs instantly (going parallel to the partition of #13 and then at the top of those stairs you immediately turn (rotate) left to face the door of #19?
OR
go through the door and walk to the foot of the stairs somewhere in the area between the front door and the partition wall of #13?
do the stairs run straight or do they bend (turn onto a landing)?
Is the door from the passage right next to the partition wall of #13 or further inside the passageway?

If I was describing the same directions to #19, with all the possible positional variations of stairs, walls, partitions, and doors then that statement would encompass and perfectly describe any and all configurations we have considered on these forum threads.

UNLESS
We take the statement literally. Then it would give us the exact position of the prater door, the exact position of the stairs and the exact position of #19 door. And then we could work out the 1st floor landing doors, store, and stairs. If only it were that simple!

This might be a clue to the stairs?

Roberts-
"I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller's Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left."

[Debra A]

This might be a clue to the stairs?

Roberts-
"I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller's Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left."

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs,

The only slight clue in the court case was from her live in, Henry Benstead. He said this:

I returned home between 1.15 and 1.30 a.m., and found the room door three parts open. The downstairs door was also open.

I don't know if that helps us much. The sketch you posted is what I had in mind.

Thanks Jerry.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

I don't know if they did switch, Dave. There seems to be enough evidence to divide opinion on whether or not Prater's room (20) was at the front or back.

[jerryd]

Thanks Debs,

The only slight clue in the court case was from her live in, Henry Benstead. He said this:

I returned home between 1.15 and 1.30 a.m., and found the room door three parts open. The downstairs door was also open.

I don't know if that helps us much. The sketch you posted is what I had in mind.

[DJA]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

[Debra A]

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

At the time of the Marshall case Room 20 (Avery's) looked towards Dorset St and No 19 (Roberts') looked towards Miller's Court.

[Debra A]

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

Hi Jerry,
I used to wonder if the upstairs tenant traipsed to the back of the downstairs room, No 11, to access the stairs but the plan maybe shows where the stairs come up into No 12 upstairs, and not where they start downstairs?

Although I have seen similar plans and room drawing of some garden cottages off Opal Street Kennington which were also one up, one down, cottages built in a court which was formerly a garden and the drawing shows the foot of the stairs in the downstairs room to be open and apparently not near the front door.

[DJA]

Next to 13.
Flip of coin between 18 & 19.

[richardh]

"rooms 14 to 19" Where is room 14?
Also, what was the number of the room above #20?

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

[DJA]

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

[DJA]

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19138

" The actual registered owner in the Land Tax Assessment for 1889/1890 was listed as one M Barnett. At that time, shortly after the Whitechapel murders, this M Barnett is listed as the proprietor of Nos 27 and 26 Dorset Street. Interestingly, in that same document, what we know as Millers Court is listed as Millers Place, consisting of six houses, each with M Barnett as the proprietor. The Land tax Assessment also lists for each property its Rental or Annual Value Assessed."

Implies there were 6 houses,so one entrance to 11/12.
Also implies 13 and Prater's room was a separate house,which I still doubt.
Meh. Could be wrong. Again.

[richardh]

I was under the impression that the cottage front door opened directly onto the foot of the stairs leading up to the next floor with a right turn and a door (marked on that diagram as a black line). As you enter the front door there would be a door immediately to the right leading to #11. Those stairs in the diagram *should be* running UP the left hand wall, turning right with a door opening into #12
Not sure if that's the way the diagram indicates.

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?