ORIGINAL doors in Miller's court

[Wickerman]

I guess an explanation of this particular map might help me in my confusion. I am far from a cartographer. In the map Jon provided with blue circle, there is an opening into #60.

Hi Jerry.
That opening is a door into the passage/backyard at ground level.

Also in the passage is what appears to be a wall or window? That seems unusual to me, rather than the passage being a clear walkthrough without out wall/window.

That hole you see is a door, and because no level is indicated (ie; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.?), then it means a door exists at all levels.

To me it seems that is a pass through above the passage toward #62.

Because a door is indicated from No.60 to the passage at the 1st level, that means no other access exists at any other level. In other words, the thick line (which means, firewall), runs from ground level to roof and is solid except for the door indicated at 1st level.

#62 appears to have a partition wall on the left side. Hope I am explaining this ok. Hard to get my point across maybe?

If you mean the 'dashed' line between the passage & the PH?, then all this indicates is that the passage only exists at the 1st/Ground level. The next level up in the PH (Public House) sits above the passage.

In the passage, difficult to read, are the words, "BK. ARCH", which means Brick Arch.
Also, on either side of the firewall you will see two sets of numbers. On the left side (in No.60) we see "34' ", on the right side (in No.62) we see "30' ".
As both premises are 3 1/2 storeys tall, the notation is telling us that No.60 is 34 feet tall, whereas No.62 is less at 30 feet tall. Indicating that each storey is 10 feet high.

A half storey is often an attic structure, which appears to not exist on the roof of the public house, in spite of the 3 1/2 seen written there.
This appears to be an inconsistency, but if each level was only 9 feet in No.62 then "30' " would represent about 3 1/2 storeys.

[jerryd]

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
I think Jon has it right, the Goad key seems pretty conclusive to me. Also, what makes you think it makes sense for two buildings in a terrace to have internal connecting doors?

Joshua,

I guess an explanation of this particular map might help me in my confusion. I am far from a cartographer. In the map Jon provided with blue circle, there is an opening into #60. Also in the passage is what appears to be a wall or window? That seems unusual to me, rather than the passage being a clear walkthrough without out wall/window. To me it seems that is a pass through above the passage toward #62. #62 appears to have a partition wall on the left side. Hope I am explaining this ok. Hard to get my point across maybe?



I am thinking something similar to Miller's Court in this picture. That's why I said would it not make sense it may be a pass through or a nook over the passage. Like a store room or something.

[Joshua Rogan]

I also noticed in post #51 you used a blue circle to show a 1st floor door which you say means the GF. If you look you will see a passage from whatever Row that is to the main street to the north. Wouldn't it make sense that there was an interior door above the passage on the 1st Floor (British) leading from #60 to #62 above the passage?

Hi Jerry,
I think Jon has it right, the Goad key seems pretty conclusive to me. Also, what makes you think it makes sense for two buildings in a terrace to have internal connecting doors?

[Wickerman]

I also noticed in post #51 you used a blue circle to show a 1st floor door which you say means the GF. If you look you will see a passage from whatever Row that is to the main street to the north. Wouldn't it make sense that there was an interior door above the passage on the 1st Floor (British) leading from #60 to #62 above the passage?

Hi Jerry.

Please look at the next post on that same page, post 53.

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.php?p=441109&postcount=53

The first lines in the left column advise the reader:
"1. 1 1/2. 2. 2 1/2. etc. are stories in height counting from level of ground"
[Note: "Stories" is the Amercian spelling for the British, "Storeys"]

That notation confirms the the use of "1st" as meaning Ground Floor.
Level 1 on the level of the ground, is the ground floor.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry.

The Goad Plans were drawn up by an American company, so used American terms.

The Marshall case identified the upstairs room above room 13 as on the first floor, which is correct. Room 13 was beneath it on the ground floor.

The Goad Plans make no reference to "Ground Floor" anywhere - its not an American term, so in their plans room 13 was on the first floor, Marshall's room above is on the 2nd floor.

It is bemusing why the use of foreign terminology was permitted on British plans, but as I demonstrated, we also see American spelling for some words within those plans.
So, we just need to recognise this, and keep it in mind when using those plans.

I wouldn't have fancied reading through nearly 800 posts either...

Thanks Wick,

The thing that I question about Goad using Canadian/American terms is the plans were not sold to the public. They were hired out in atlases to organizations such as insurance companies and local authorities. Wouldn't that be confusing to the local insurance companies to use American terms for GF and 1st floor?Also, Goad uses his London address on Crouch Hill for the maps and the keys.

I also noticed in post #51 you used a blue circle to show a 1st floor door which you say means the GF. If you look you will see a passage from whatever Row that is to the main street to the north. Wouldn't it make sense that there was an interior door above the passage on the 1st Floor (British) leading from #60 to #62 above the passage?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jerry.

The Goad Plans were drawn up by an American company, so used American terms.

The Marshall case identified the upstairs room above room 13 as on the first floor, which is correct. Room 13 was beneath it on the ground floor.

The Goad Plans make no reference to "Ground Floor" anywhere - its not an American term, so in their plans room 13 was on the first floor, Marshall's room above is on the 2nd floor.

It is bemusing why the use of foreign terminology was permitted on British plans, but as I demonstrated, we also see American spelling for some words within those plans.
So, we just need to recognise this, and keep it in mind when using those plans.

I wouldn't have fancied reading through nearly 800 posts either...

[jerryd]

There is a thread, Praters Stairs, where we discussed the Kate Marshall case, and the details it provided.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9308&highlight=kate+mitchell

Compromises had to be made, not everything is crystal clear.

Something to keep you out of trouble this weekend

Thanks Wick,

My post from a couple of days ago was referring to the use of the wording 1st floor as the floor above ground floor as indicated by David Roberts in the Marshall case. I thought you felt the 1st floor was the ground floor because of the goad map. I think I was mistaken in what you were trying to say in your exchange with Simon. That's all.

I've wracked my brain enough over the layout of #26 Dorset Street. No need to ruin my weekend over it. haha

[Wickerman]

Wick,

During the Kate Marshall murder case the floor above ground level is referred to as the first floor at #26 Dorset Street and indicated by the fact Davis Roberts said he went to the landing. No?

There is a thread, Praters Stairs, where we discussed the Kate Marshall case, and the details it provided.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9308&highlight=kate+mitchell

Compromises had to be made, not everything is crystal clear.

Something to keep you out of trouble this weekend

[DJA]

Was fortunate to work on this refit over a quarter of a century ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryant_and_May_Factory,_Melbourne

[DJA]

I do understand that.
They are stairs though. Not a biggie as far as actual construction goes.
Current model blocks my hallway
All the Best!

[Wickerman]

Reckon there was a side hallway,as you know.
Suspect the back stairs ran partway across the building,not along it.

Dave.

The most expedient and cost effective way to bring the stairs up through the floor above is to place the stairs so they enter the next level between the main joists.
The main joists at No.26 & 27 ran east-west, with the apex of the house.

This is why we turned the stairs after the mezzanine in the 3D model.

We have an example in the house at 29 Hanbury St. but without the mezzanine.
We see the stairs run along the sidewall of the house, then turn to enter the next level between the joists, as it should be.

[barnflatwyngarde]

Okay.
Bytheby, the room I'm in now is just shy of 7th hight with the doors at 6'3" although I do live in a cottage with low downstairs ceilings and super high upstairs ones!

My stairs (in my house) are 3ft wide, 8" high x 9" deep. Cottage is OLD over 130 years.

Ok Richard, you've sold me.

I would like to book your cottage for the first two weeks in August.

Do you allow dogs?

🙂

[richardh]

Okay.
Bytheby, the room I'm in now is just shy of 7th hight with the doors at 6'3" although I do live in a cottage with low downstairs ceilings and super high upstairs ones!

My stairs (in my house) are 3ft wide, 8" high x 9" deep. Cottage is OLD over 130 years.

Especially in a townhouse like that.

Have a look at the street 'photos of Dorset Street.
If most of those people are 5' tall,9 feet is probably a conservative guess.

13 Miller's Court was over 8',minimum.

[DJA]

Especially in a townhouse like that.

Have a look at the street 'photos of Dorset Street.
If most of those people are 5' tall,9 feet is probably a conservative guess.

13 Miller's Court was over 8',minimum.