ORIGINAL doors in Miller's court

[richardh]

"rooms 14 to 19" Where is room 14?
Also, what was the number of the room above #20?

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

[DJA]

Next to 13.
Flip of coin between 18 & 19.

[Debra A]

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

Hi Jerry,
I used to wonder if the upstairs tenant traipsed to the back of the downstairs room, No 11, to access the stairs but the plan maybe shows where the stairs come up into No 12 upstairs, and not where they start downstairs?

Although I have seen similar plans and room drawing of some garden cottages off Opal Street Kennington which were also one up, one down, cottages built in a court which was formerly a garden and the drawing shows the foot of the stairs in the downstairs room to be open and apparently not near the front door.

[Debra A]

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

At the time of the Marshall case Room 20 (Avery's) looked towards Dorset St and No 19 (Roberts') looked towards Miller's Court.

[DJA]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

[jerryd]

Thanks Debs,

The only slight clue in the court case was from her live in, Henry Benstead. He said this:

I returned home between 1.15 and 1.30 a.m., and found the room door three parts open. The downstairs door was also open.

I don't know if that helps us much. The sketch you posted is what I had in mind.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

I don't know if they did switch, Dave. There seems to be enough evidence to divide opinion on whether or not Prater's room (20) was at the front or back.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs,

The only slight clue in the court case was from her live in, Henry Benstead. He said this:

I returned home between 1.15 and 1.30 a.m., and found the room door three parts open. The downstairs door was also open.

I don't know if that helps us much. The sketch you posted is what I had in mind.

Thanks Jerry.

[Debra A]

This might be a clue to the stairs?

Roberts-
"I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller's Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left."

[richardh]

It could provide lots of clues but it is also vague enough to be ambiguous!
It was on the first floor = nice and clear
Approach to it up miller's court = well we know he means you get to in from walking from Dorset street into the passageway and there is a door at some point up that passageway BEFORE you enter the court proper and before you get to the door of #13
And then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left = Here the ambiguity starts! Do you go through the door and are met with the foot of the stairs instantly (going parallel to the partition of #13 and then at the top of those stairs you immediately turn (rotate) left to face the door of #19?
OR
go through the door and walk to the foot of the stairs somewhere in the area between the front door and the partition wall of #13?
do the stairs run straight or do they bend (turn onto a landing)?
Is the door from the passage right next to the partition wall of #13 or further inside the passageway?

If I was describing the same directions to #19, with all the possible positional variations of stairs, walls, partitions, and doors then that statement would encompass and perfectly describe any and all configurations we have considered on these forum threads.

UNLESS
We take the statement literally. Then it would give us the exact position of the prater door, the exact position of the stairs and the exact position of #19 door. And then we could work out the 1st floor landing doors, store, and stairs. If only it were that simple!

This might be a clue to the stairs?

Roberts-
"I occupied No. 19 room. It was on the first floor back. The approach to it is up Miller's Court and then up one flight of stairs and turn to the left."

[Wickerman]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

Nothing switched Dave, the Mitchell case merely confirms what Prater told the court. That she lived in rm 20, over the shed, which faced Dorset St.
Prater also noticed the lodging-house light was out, which she believed meant it was past 4 O'clock.
We have a photo of Dorset St. showing the huge lodging-house lights hanging out front.
Room 20 was out front, and overlooked Dorset St.

[Debra A]

Richard, out of interest; is there a problem with taking Roberts description literally? Does it conflict with any other descriptions?

Where do you have the narrow first floor passage situated on your model?

[richardh]

If we take it literally and have the door to #19 at the very top of the stairs (going parallel to the partition), then we have to place the stairs to the next floor, the storeroom and the door to #20 in positions that would agree with the rest of the court statements. The doors need to be positioned so you would see the other door when exiting either room, the storeroom would need to be on the passageway side of the landing and the stairs to floor 2 would need to be positioned to allow for all this. We know that the space between the rooms (#19 /#20) was 9ft and I read somewhere that the storeroom was described as 9ft x 5ft (think it was 5ft) so the storeroom spanned the width of the landing/narrow passageway. I don't think having stairs up the partition wall would allow for all this.

My model at the moment has the stairs running exactly like the Hanbury Street photo - directly in line with the front door, going up and turning to the right onto a landing with the door to #19 on the left and the storeroom right in front - room #20 to the right. This allows for the stairs to go up to the next level and also agrees with the court statements about:
"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"

There are multitude ways that I can arrange the 1st-floor landing but the model I have at the moment seems to tick many of the necessary boxes.

Richard, out of interest; is there a problem with taking Roberts description literally? Does it conflict with any other descriptions?

Where do you have the narrow first floor passage situated on your model?

[Wickerman]

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

No. 20 overlooked Dorset St.
What "outhouse"?, the Ronan sketch shows the W/C where it stood in 1909, but in 1888 the W/C was at the other end of Millers Court, next to units 5/6.
This is also where the 1890 Goad Plan shows them.
The "shed" was beneath room 20, and opened up onto Dorset St. This is where McCarthy kept his wheelbarrows.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The attic over No.27, yes.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

Three of those six chimney's could belong to next door, No.25 Dorset St.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

The internal stairs would enter the next level inline with the partition for rm 13, that's all we can reasonably conclude. This is what Richard's 3D model indicated.

[Debra A]

If we take it literally and have the door to #19 at the very top of the stairs (going parallel to the partition), then we have to place the stairs to the next floor, the storeroom and the door to #20 in positions that would agree with the rest of the court statements. The doors need to be positioned so you would see the other door when exiting either room, the storeroom would need to be on the passageway side of the landing and the stairs to floor 2 would need to be positioned to allow for all this. We know that the space between the rooms (#19 /#20) was 9ft and I read somewhere that the storeroom was described as 9ft x 5ft (think it was 5ft) so the storeroom spanned the width of the landing/narrow passageway. I don't think having stairs up the partition wall would allow for all this.

My model at the moment has the stairs running exactly like the Hanbury Street photo - directly in line with the front door, going up and turning to the right onto a landing with the door to #19 on the left and the storeroom right in front - room #20 to the right. This allows for the stairs to go up to the next level and also agrees with the court statements about:
"I kicked against this partition, which separates the witness Amory's room from the staircase; the partition ends at a small room called the storeroom"

There are multitude ways that I can arrange the 1st-floor landing but the model I have at the moment seems to tick many of the necessary boxes.

Yes, that makes sense, Richard.
The only thing that bothers me is that the signed statements used at Worship St Magistrates Court show some slight differences.
For example, in his statement , Amery describes the space between the two rooms as between 6 and 7 feet. Wouldn't that be the width of the narrow passage and the windowless room slotted between being that width?