ORIGINAL doors in Miller's court

[DJA]

Thanks Debra.

I was referring to the Mary Kelly case.

So 19 and 20 switched numbering?

[Debra A]

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

At the time of the Marshall case Room 20 (Avery's) looked towards Dorset St and No 19 (Roberts') looked towards Miller's Court.

[Debra A]

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

Hi Jerry,
I used to wonder if the upstairs tenant traipsed to the back of the downstairs room, No 11, to access the stairs but the plan maybe shows where the stairs come up into No 12 upstairs, and not where they start downstairs?

Although I have seen similar plans and room drawing of some garden cottages off Opal Street Kennington which were also one up, one down, cottages built in a court which was formerly a garden and the drawing shows the foot of the stairs in the downstairs room to be open and apparently not near the front door.

[DJA]

Next to 13.
Flip of coin between 18 & 19.

[richardh]

"rooms 14 to 19" Where is room 14?
Also, what was the number of the room above #20?

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

[DJA]

Shed and outhouse are interchangeable.20 overlooked the four water closets.

3.5 floors implies all attic rooms belonged to 27.

The six chimneys means rooms 14 to 19 were counted for inhabitation,not a storeroom and stairs.

The stairway would have run parallel to 13.

Do the two small central windows windows with the shared ventilation stack remind you of anything a bit more modern?

[DJA]

https://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=19138


" The actual registered owner in the Land Tax Assessment for 1889/1890 was listed as one M Barnett. At that time, shortly after the Whitechapel murders, this M Barnett is listed as the proprietor of Nos 27 and 26 Dorset Street. Interestingly, in that same document, what we know as Millers Court is listed as Millers Place, consisting of six houses, each with M Barnett as the proprietor. The Land tax Assessment also lists for each property its Rental or Annual Value Assessed."

Implies there were 6 houses,so one entrance to 11/12.
Also implies 13 and Prater's room was a separate house,which I still doubt.
Meh. Could be wrong. Again.

[richardh]

I was under the impression that the cottage front door opened directly onto the foot of the stairs leading up to the next floor with a right turn and a door (marked on that diagram as a black line). As you enter the front door there would be a door immediately to the right leading to #11. Those stairs in the diagram *should be* running UP the left hand wall, turning right with a door opening into #12
Not sure if that's the way the diagram indicates.

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

[Wickerman]

I guess an explanation of this particular map might help me in my confusion. I am far from a cartographer. In the map Jon provided with blue circle, there is an opening into #60.

Hi Jerry.
That opening is a door into the passage/backyard at ground level.

Also in the passage is what appears to be a wall or window? That seems unusual to me, rather than the passage being a clear walkthrough without out wall/window.

That hole you see is a door, and because no level is indicated (ie; 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.?), then it means a door exists at all levels.

To me it seems that is a pass through above the passage toward #62.

Because a door is indicated from No.60 to the passage at the 1st level, that means no other access exists at any other level. In other words, the thick line (which means, firewall), runs from ground level to roof and is solid except for the door indicated at 1st level.

#62 appears to have a partition wall on the left side. Hope I am explaining this ok. Hard to get my point across maybe?

If you mean the 'dashed' line between the passage & the PH?, then all this indicates is that the passage only exists at the 1st/Ground level. The next level up in the PH (Public House) sits above the passage.

In the passage, difficult to read, are the words, "BK. ARCH", which means Brick Arch.
Also, on either side of the firewall you will see two sets of numbers. On the left side (in No.60) we see "34' ", on the right side (in No.62) we see "30' ".
As both premises are 3 1/2 storeys tall, the notation is telling us that No.60 is 34 feet tall, whereas No.62 is less at 30 feet tall. Indicating that each storey is 10 feet high.

A half storey is often an attic structure, which appears to not exist on the roof of the public house, in spite of the 3 1/2 seen written there.
This appears to be an inconsistency, but if each level was only 9 feet in No.62 then "30' " would represent about 3 1/2 storeys.

[jerryd]

Sort of off topic from #26 Dorset Street but still on the topic of doors in Miller's Court, I found this sketch I believe by PC Harry Woodley of H Division during the Kitty Roman/Ronan murder in 1909 in this blog http://www.babiafi.co.uk/2015/09/mid...oor-kitty.html. I noticed stairs at the back of the room which appear to lead up to #12 from #11. Does anyone know where the door at the bottom of the stairs would be? Or did the people living in the top apartments in all the court buildings pass through the neighbor below somehow? I can't quite figure out how they got to and from the top floor?

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
I think Jon has it right, the Goad key seems pretty conclusive to me. Also, what makes you think it makes sense for two buildings in a terrace to have internal connecting doors?

Joshua,

I guess an explanation of this particular map might help me in my confusion. I am far from a cartographer. In the map Jon provided with blue circle, there is an opening into #60. Also in the passage is what appears to be a wall or window? That seems unusual to me, rather than the passage being a clear walkthrough without out wall/window. To me it seems that is a pass through above the passage toward #62. #62 appears to have a partition wall on the left side. Hope I am explaining this ok. Hard to get my point across maybe?



I am thinking something similar to Miller's Court in this picture. That's why I said would it not make sense it may be a pass through or a nook over the passage. Like a store room or something.

[Joshua Rogan]

I also noticed in post #51 you used a blue circle to show a 1st floor door which you say means the GF. If you look you will see a passage from whatever Row that is to the main street to the north. Wouldn't it make sense that there was an interior door above the passage on the 1st Floor (British) leading from #60 to #62 above the passage?

Hi Jerry,
I think Jon has it right, the Goad key seems pretty conclusive to me. Also, what makes you think it makes sense for two buildings in a terrace to have internal connecting doors?

[Wickerman]

I also noticed in post #51 you used a blue circle to show a 1st floor door which you say means the GF. If you look you will see a passage from whatever Row that is to the main street to the north. Wouldn't it make sense that there was an interior door above the passage on the 1st Floor (British) leading from #60 to #62 above the passage?

Hi Jerry.

Please look at the next post on that same page, post 53.
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...9&postcount=53

The first lines in the left column advise the reader:
"1. 1 1/2. 2. 2 1/2. etc. are stories in height counting from level of ground"
[Note: "Stories" is the Amercian spelling for the British, "Storeys"]

That notation confirms the the use of "1st" as meaning Ground Floor.
Level 1 on the level of the ground, is the ground floor.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry.

The Goad Plans were drawn up by an American company, so used American terms.

The Marshall case identified the upstairs room above room 13 as on the first floor, which is correct. Room 13 was beneath it on the ground floor.

The Goad Plans make no reference to "Ground Floor" anywhere - its not an American term, so in their plans room 13 was on the first floor, Marshall's room above is on the 2nd floor.

It is bemusing why the use of foreign terminology was permitted on British plans, but as I demonstrated, we also see American spelling for some words within those plans.
So, we just need to recognise this, and keep it in mind when using those plans.

I wouldn't have fancied reading through nearly 800 posts either...

Thanks Wick,

The thing that I question about Goad using Canadian/American terms is the plans were not sold to the public. They were hired out in atlases to organizations such as insurance companies and local authorities. Wouldn't that be confusing to the local insurance companies to use American terms for GF and 1st floor?Also, Goad uses his London address on Crouch Hill for the maps and the keys.

I also noticed in post #51 you used a blue circle to show a 1st floor door which you say means the GF. If you look you will see a passage from whatever Row that is to the main street to the north. Wouldn't it make sense that there was an interior door above the passage on the 1st Floor (British) leading from #60 to #62 above the passage?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jerry.

The Goad Plans were drawn up by an American company, so used American terms.

The Marshall case identified the upstairs room above room 13 as on the first floor, which is correct. Room 13 was beneath it on the ground floor.

The Goad Plans make no reference to "Ground Floor" anywhere - its not an American term, so in their plans room 13 was on the first floor, Marshall's room above is on the 2nd floor.

It is bemusing why the use of foreign terminology was permitted on British plans, but as I demonstrated, we also see American spelling for some words within those plans.
So, we just need to recognise this, and keep it in mind when using those plans.

I wouldn't have fancied reading through nearly 800 posts either...