"Murder...!" cry

[Sam Flynn]

Assuming that Abberline was told the TOD wouldn't a seasoned detective such as himself have asked what that was based upon?

Possibly, but - again - not everything was reported in the papers and, thanks to Roderick Macdonald, very little came out at the inquest either. Given that the Kelly murder was by far the most "spectacular" of the Ripper crimes, it's a shame that we are so very poorly served by the records.

[c.d.]

True enough, but the important question is less one of where she went, but when she ate. To put it in a quasi-equation form:

Time of Eating = (Time of "Murder!" cry) - (Approx time for fish to appear partially-digested in stomach)

That's true, Sam. She could have gone out and brought the food back and eaten it later but if I were Abberline I would want to question everybody at the food establishment to see if they could remember her talking to anybody while there.

c.d.

[c.d.]

I wonder if Blotchy could have brought her the food.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

In the 19th century, as now, the presence of partly broken-down fish in the stomach would suggest that the food had been consumed a couple of hours before the relevant enzyme (pepsin) had ceased to be viable.True, but assuming the ~4AM cry of "Murder" was indeed hers, we can propose that she had been out and about at around 2AM, at which time she probably ate her last meal.

Well she wasn't heard singing and all was quiet after one, so I could go with maybe she and blotchy went out and got a bite to eat and came back.

[Abby Normal]

I wonder if Blotchy could have brought her the food.

c.d.

Absolutely, on the way home from pub or maybe they went out shortly after one.

[Wickerman]

I wonder if Blotchy could have brought her the food.

c.d.

Absolutely, on the way home from pub or maybe they went out shortly after one.

Yes, I think Bond was given a "time of consumption" based on Kelly's liaison with Blotchy.

The ironic thing for me though is, it had to be wrong.

[Wickerman]

Hello Sam,

Assuming that Abberline was told the TOD wouldn't a seasoned detective such as himself have asked what that was based upon? Yes, we have to make assumptions but this sounds like pretty much a done deal to me.

c.d.

Actually c.d., I think it worked the other way around. Bond cannot estimate a time of death until Abberline provides Bond with an estimated 'time of consumption'.
The first step is for him to find the chippy, which isn't going to take too long.

I'll bet if the stomach contents had been made public, the press would have found where/when she last ate in no time flat.

[c.d.]

You might have a point there, Wick. I don't know the answer. Maybe somebody can chime in and help.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Just as an idle thought, Blotchy seems a pretty distinctive individual. I wonder if places where he might have bought the beer could have been checked?

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Just as an idle thought, Blotchy seems a pretty distinctive individual. I wonder if places where he might have bought the beer could have been checked?

c.d.

That search was reported by the press.

" Inquiry has equally failed to obtain evidence of Kelly or any person similar to the man described having bought beer at any of the neighbouring public-houses."
Daily Telegraph, 13th Nov. 1888.

Though whether this was a police inquiry, or press inquiry is not known.

[Sam Flynn]

I'll bet if the stomach contents had been made public, the press would have found where/when she last ate in no time flat.

I'm not so sure. I don't think there was a scramble to find out which purveyor of cheese, potatoes and "farinaceous edibles" might have fed Liz Stride her last meal.

[Joshua Rogan]

...we can propose that she had been out and about at around 2AM, at which time she probably ate her last meal.

Could Astrakhan man's small parcel have contained a portion of cod and chips?

[Joshua Rogan]

Well since Mary didn't have a car and was therefore walking and since it was late at night a reasonable assumption would be that it was somewhere close. It does not seem an insurmountable task to find out where she went.

c.d.

Not sure about that.... I think one police officer said Whitechapel was referred to as "Fried Fish and Fights", due to the popularity of the dish (and the frequent violence) in the area. The food needn't have been purchased ready to eat, either - it could have been cooked in the kitchen of any local doss-house. Or bought by someone before they shared it with Mary.

[jason_c]

I haven't been following the thread in great detail, and tbh I have forgotten more about the Kelly timeline than I now remember. However, from memory I came to the conclusion a long time ago that there are enough inconsistencies in the Kelly timeline that it's impossible to come to a firm conclusion. We only have fleeting glimpses and earwitnesses to her movements that night. We also dont know for sure just how drunk she was, how well she could hold her drink, or how desperate she was about the collection of next days rent? I mean was Kelly just drunk & desperate enough that night that it loosened her inhibitions on which clients to accept, or had she reached the drunken "I dont give a f*ck about the rent" stage? I know when I drink it leads me to a variety of emotions and actions, not all of them in my own best self interest.

[Wickerman]

I'm not so sure. I don't think there was a scramble to find out which purveyor of cheese, potatoes and "farinaceous edibles" might have fed Liz Stride her last meal.

Stride's time of death was known within a few minutes, it was not an issue. In Kelly's case there are several hours to consider, which means several suspects.
Narrowing down Kelly's time of death was of huge importance for the police to pursue the correct suspect.

The Star, following the inquest on the 12th were still suggesting the police believed Kelly was murdered in daylight. I don't know if that is a reflection of the typical inaccuracies of the press, or the true situation.