"Murder...!" cry

[Wickerman]

If she is face down and he is on her back...A) how did he get there without waking her, and B),

She is not asleep Michael.
Kelly brought her client back to her room.
She is undressed because she was about to entertain her client. Had she been alone and simply going to sleep she would have kept her clothes on like the poor of her class normally did.

She is on the bed with her client, which is why she is nearest the wall. As the most popular method for safe-sex was 'rear entry', her client is behind her - that is when he attacked.

how does her jugular spray only 90% sideways onto the partition wall? Why no spray over the head of the bed?

The head of the bed was not against a wall, so we do not know where else any spray might have been found. As it is, from the sketch I made, the cut begins at the left side of her neck, nearest the wall, where the spray made contact with the partition.
This is a right-handed killer at work.

Rhetorical question that B, the blood is found where it is because she was facing the wall it was found on when her throat is cut. She is then rolled back onto her back after the struggle subsides....leaving her in the approximate place she flopped back into when she is found. I would imagine that left arm may have dangled off the bed and over the floor, maybe it was left in that position before being placed back over her empty midsection....

Something like that, yes.

[GUT]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driza-Bone

Had mine for decades.

Me too.

Full length, short, hat.

[Sam Flynn]

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.

Her cut thumb would suggest that she had at least made an effort to grab and fend off the knife.

Helpful drawing, Jon, but how did he get into that position? He'd have to have been standing between the narrow space between bed and the wall, surely?

Edit: I've since read your "rear entry" post, so presumably he's kneeling on the bed, and straddling Kelly, at this point?

That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of. Do you remember where you read that?

Dr Bond: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack."

Trouble is, unless things had been rearranged prior to the full-length photo being taken, Kelly's body was lying on a mattress with an "under-sheet", but there doesn't appear to have been an "over-sheet" or blanket near her head; on the contrary, if there was an "over-sheet" at all, it seems to be located near the foot of the bed. Perhaps Bond was mistaken or misinformed?

[Darryl Kenyon]

Just found this link, https://prezi.com/x9lafoou48qq/time-...mach-contents/. Halfway down the page 1. If there is food in the stomach, death occurred zero to two hours after the last meal

[Sam Flynn]

Just found this link, https://prezi.com/x9lafoou48qq/time-...mach-contents/. Halfway down the page 1. If there is food in the stomach, death occurred zero to two hours after the last meal

Fascinating. Thanks for that, Darryl.

[Wickerman]

Her cut thumb would suggest that she had at least made an effort to grab and fend off the knife.
Helpful drawing, Jon, but how did he get into that position? He'd have to have been standing between the narrow space between bed and the wall, surely?

Edit: I've since read your "rear entry" post, so presumably he's kneeling on the bed, and straddling Kelly, at this point?

That is the suggestion, yes.

Dr Bond: "In the Dorset Street case the corner of the sheet to the right of the woman's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack."

Thanks, yes Abby mentioned the cut sheet.
Any cuts in the sheet will come after the initial attack, presumably after she is rolled over onto her back.

I'm not so sure about her fighting back. None of the victims seem to have been attacked by a knife wielding maniac. It is probably true to say none of the victims ever saw the knife. They were all subdued or suffocated/strangled by the time he took his knife out.
(The Stride case of course is debatable)
So, I do not see the Kelly murder as any different.

The ecchymosis around the neck suggests bruising to me, an indication she was strangled. Plus her right hand was 'clenched', another indication of the same. So she is face down on the bed unconscious when he grabs her hair from behind raising her head up and sliced her throat as I sketched.
Then, rolled her over onto her back where she was found, as described, 2/3rds the way over on the bed.
This is when the sheet may have been pulled over her face? But why do that when he conducts far worse mutilations with no sheet covering her body.
I don't see the significance of it.

Trouble is, unless things had been rearranged prior to the full-length photo being taken, Kelly's body was lying on a mattress with an "under-sheet", but there doesn't appear to have been an "over-sheet" or blanket near her head; on the contrary, if there was an "over-sheet" at all, it seems to be located near the foot of the bed. Perhaps Bond was mistaken or misinformed?

I take the cut sheet as meaning the undersheet. It being pulled up and over her face once she is on her back at the left side (near the door) of the bed.

There are some press accounts of the photographer arriving before 2:00, and only departing about 4:00 pm. It appears photo's were taken both before the autopsy and again after everything had been moved because of the autopsy/investigation.
So who knows whether this 'body on the bed' photo was taken before or after the autopsy?

Dr. Bond described how the body looked on his arrival at the room. He does say her right arm was close to the body, yet what appears to be her right hand is visible over at the far right side of the bed, contrary to his description. This may indicate that the photo we have was taken after the autopsy, when 'things' had been moved.

I prefer to take Bond at his word, he was there after all.

[Robert]

Jon, she may have been naked simply because she had recently entertained a client, i.e. Mr A. She may then have not felt like getting up and dressed just so she could lie down again.

[Sam Flynn]

I'm not so sure about her fighting back... The ecchymosis around the neck suggests bruising to me, an indication she was strangled. Plus her right hand was 'clenched', another indication of the same.

Why the cut thumb, though, if she hadn't at some point tried to manally fend off the knife? The thumb is an odd place for an accidental cut to have appeared.

I take the cut sheet as meaning the undersheet. It being pulled up and over her face once she is on her back at the left side (near the door) of the bed.

Why go through all that trouble? Seems unnecessarily fiddly to me.

[Sam Flynn]

So who knows whether this 'body on the bed' photo was taken before or after the autopsy?

The autopsy would require the doctors to examine the organs, which would necessitate moving them around, ideally - perhaps necessarily - in a location more suitable for such an examination to take place (i.e. off-site). Furthermore, the way Bond describes the body (and the disposition of what body parts we can see) tallies very closely with what appears in the photo. Taking all that into account, I've little doubt that it was taken before the autopsy.

[Wickerman]

Jon, she may have been naked simply because she had recently entertained a client, i.e. Mr A. She may then have not felt like getting up and dressed just so she could lie down again.

I think we might try to put ourselves in that cold and drafty room after midnight.
It can't have been warm enough to sleep in a flimsy nightgown. The fire might be key to understanding this. From what we are told there was only the remains of clothing found in the grate. Is it rationale to believe Kelly would make a fire using her own clothes?
Or, is it more rational to say it was the killer who made the fire using clothes she is obviously not going to need anymore.

The latter would suggest that the fire was only made after she was killed, which would suggest the room would have been cold for sleeping in only a nightgown.
So, on balance, I would say it unlikely she fell asleep undressed in a cold room with broken windows.

[Wickerman]

The autopsy would require the doctors to examine the organs, which would necessitate moving them around, ideally - perhaps necessarily - in a location more suitable for such an examination to take place (i.e. off-site). Furthermore, the way Bond describes the body (and the disposition of what body parts we can see) tallies very closely with what appears in the photo. Taking all that into account, I've little doubt that it was taken before the autopsy.

As to the cut on the thumb, there were many meaningless cuts, lots of them.

The second photo, the close-up of the pubes, looking towards the door, is clearly taken after the bed is moved away from the wall. Yet organs & flesh are still laying around.
There is nothing in either photo to indicate when the photo was taken, except with respect to the position of the right arm, as I mentioned earlier.

[Robert]

Hi Jon

Could I have your position on the rain, please, since I think it's a material factor. Did you recently say that you didn't think there was much rain?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon

Could I have your position on the rain, please, since I think it's a material factor. Did you recently say that you didn't think there was much rain?

Hi Robert.

I think you are referring to my point that only Cox mentioned rain that night.
I am intrigued why there are points in Cox's evidence that seem to run counter to what other witnesses say.
Given the coming's and goings of Lewis, Kennedy, Hutchinson, Prater & Bowyer it is surprising that none mention rain.
I'm not sure how that plays into any particular scenario though, could you expand on that?

[Sam Flynn]

The second photo, the close-up of the pubes, looking towards the door, is clearly taken after the bed is moved away from the wall.

I honestly don't think the bed was moved, Jon, or only a little if it were. Even then, whatever happened to prepare the second photo doesn't materially affect the disposition of the body and the organs in the first one - especially since, as you suggest, the bed was moved after the first photo was taken.

[Sam Flynn]

As to the cut on the thumb, there were many meaningless cuts, lots of them.

But how does the knife accidentally hit the flesh of the thumb? Not impossible, I suppose, but it's a very small target, and there's not much else of interest down there. Yes, there were cuts to the backs of the hand and the forearms, but the thumb points in the other direction.

What have you got against Kelly trying to defend herself anyway?