"Murder...!" cry

[GUT]

Hi Robert.

I'm not convinced it was Kelly who cried out.

Nor am I.

[Wickerman]

Hi Robert.

I'm not convinced it was Kelly who cried out.

[Robert St Devil]

if she had still been alive wickerman and cried "oh murder" right before having her throat ripped, would you expect to find blood in her (or any of these women,s) mouth? like, she coughed some up, or reflex pushed some up and splattered her tongue and teeth...

[kjab3112]

Or somebody who knew the layout: either invited then or before

[Wickerman]

Yes, there's no material to suggest that the doctor's belief about the time of Dimmock's last meal was anything other than an assumption. Yet, as you may know, the time of death in this particular case was crucial for a number of reasons, not least of which being that the prime suspect manufactured himself a false alibi up until midnight, while the doctor estimated time of death well after midnight.

It's years since I read anything about that case, I could do with an update.

[John G]

There is ample evidence that she was facing the wall when her throat was cut John, and since no sounds were heard after the cry out that was heard "as if from the court", not as if within the house, ...supported of course by the fact that Sarah heard it as if "at her door",..a scenario which has perhaps reluctant granted access and Mary sliding over to the right side of the bed, on her right side, after letting the late night visitor in is quite plausible. I suspect that not long after the cry out she began to doze again, and began to flail as she was woken by the feeling across her throat.

The problem with the latch and the broken panes is this....how much light was available to see the potential latch access, and how does he get in and close the door without waking someone who is a few mere feet away. All of this taking place on creaky floorboards, that Elizabeth heard whenever Mary moved things about in her room.

The presumption that Mary went out again after 11:45 is all well and good, we even have some witnesses who claim to have seen her out. None of which we can be sure knew Mary at all or even what she looked like. The question is why. Why would she go out? Pubs are closed, she has no money that we know of, and she has for some time been reluctant to go out and earn money, (the arrears), and Joe acknowledges she needed whatever coins he could spare almost daily. Add to that she has evidently already gotten drunk that night, and perhaps had a nosh. Then entertained someone in her room for over an hour. Whether Blotchy is still there when the lights go out is questionable, but the fact that the room does quiet down to silence, and darkness, is suggestive of a completed act for me.

Does your scenario, Michael, imply the Kelly knew her killer? I certainly wouldn't rule that out, particularly as I see John McCarthy as a bit of a long shot!

[John G]

Assuming they knew about the "window trick"; were brave enough to stick their arm past the jagged shards of a broken pane of glass in the dark; that they could open the door from inside the court without it banging against the furniture; that they had time to scoot around the corner to enter said door, without alerting Kelly and risking her screaming her head off (to more than the tune of a cry of "Oh, murder"). That's one savvy and confident killer.

Good points. However, JtR was clearly a bit of a risk taker, although not necessarily "savvy"!

[Wickerman]

Did Michael just ask, 'Why would a prostitute go out after midnight?'
Does that really need an answer?

Prostitutes still go out after midnight today Michael, even when the pubs are closed.


Hey Michael, something has been bugging me over the past few days. You seem so certain that Kennedy was really Lewis, but you never explained why it matters to you that it needs to be Lewis (as Kennedy) who saw Kelly outside the Britannia, and not some other woman?

Is there a significance there that is not obvious?

[David Orsam]

Ok, thankyou David.

From what you say above then, it would appear there is no indication that the police provided the doctor with a time Emily Dimmock last ate, which leads to the drawing of conclusions.
Should such an indication be evident?

I have not had much success with Kindle books, old habits die hard I'm afraid, you cannot beat a good old reliable book.
(Every Kindle I have ever bought, against my better judgement I might add, has been lost to the ether - yes, even the back-ups)

Yes, there's no material to suggest that the doctor's belief about the time of Dimmock's last meal was anything other than an assumption. Yet, as you may know, the time of death in this particular case was crucial for a number of reasons, not least of which being that the prime suspect manufactured himself a false alibi up until midnight, while the doctor estimated time of death well after midnight.

Until a couple of years ago I would have agreed with you about kindles but I've been converted and now find them very useful (which is why I've produced a kindle version). But my book is also available in old school hard copy form too!

[Sam Flynn]

Of course, accessing the room whilst she was asleep would have presented little difficulty to an intruder, considering the proximity of the catch to the broken window.

Assuming they knew about the "window trick"; were brave enough to stick their arm past the jagged shards of a broken pane of glass in the dark; that they could open the door from inside the court without it banging against the furniture; that they had time to scoot around the corner to enter said door, without alerting Kelly and risking her screaming her head off (to more than the tune of a cry of "Oh, murder"). That's one savvy and confident killer.

[Sam Flynn]

The question is why. Why would she go out? Pubs are closed.

We know of at least one fish and chip vendor who wasn't closed. Besides, as you say, "she has no money that we know of" - so, another reason for her going out might have been that she wanted to try to earn some money, as some other Miller's Court residents were also doing in the small hours of that morning.

[Michael W Richards]

I know it's been discussed oft times before, but my problem with the "oh murder" theory is that it's inconsistent with what I believe to be JtR's mature MO, i.e. attacking his victims quickly from behind, giving them little chance to resist. Of course, Kelly wasn't Mercado a JtR victim, but I believe she most probably was.

Moreover, both the nightdress, and the position of the body, raise the possibility that she was killed whilst asleep, although I acknowledge Jon's excellent points on this subject :see post 385 http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=413533

Of course, accessing the room whilst she was asleep would have presented little difficulty to an intruder, considering the proximity of the catch to the broken window.

There is ample evidence that she was facing the wall when her throat was cut John, and since no sounds were heard after the cry out that was heard "as if from the court", not as if within the house, ...supported of course by the fact that Sarah heard it as if "at her door",..a scenario which has perhaps reluctant granted access and Mary sliding over to the right side of the bed, on her right side, after letting the late night visitor in is quite plausible. I suspect that not long after the cry out she began to doze again, and began to flail as she was woken by the feeling across her throat.

The problem with the latch and the broken panes is this....how much light was available to see the potential latch access, and how does he get in and close the door without waking someone who is a few mere feet away. All of this taking place on creaky floorboards, that Elizabeth heard whenever Mary moved things about in her room.

The presumption that Mary went out again after 11:45 is all well and good, we even have some witnesses who claim to have seen her out. None of which we can be sure knew Mary at all or even what she looked like. The question is why. Why would she go out? Pubs are closed, she has no money that we know of, and she has for some time been reluctant to go out and earn money, (the arrears), and Joe acknowledges she needed whatever coins he could spare almost daily. Add to that she has evidently already gotten drunk that night, and perhaps had a nosh. Then entertained someone in her room for over an hour. Whether Blotchy is still there when the lights go out is questionable, but the fact that the room does quiet down to silence, and darkness, is suggestive of a completed act for me.

[Wickerman]

Interestingly, there was a very similar situation in the case of the murder of Emily Dimmock in 1907 for which there is a surviving Metropolitan Police File (or at least a significant part of it). The doctor in that case also offered an estimated time of death based on stomach contents despite there not being any evidence as to when Dimmock ate her last meal.

My belief is that the doctor also estimated when Dimmock ate her last meal, possibly based on her normal eating habits (although there is no record of such habits in the file).

There was also some confusion in that case as to whether Dimmock had eaten fish or lamb for her last meal.

I deal with this in my book 'The Camden Town Murder Mystery' which is now available on Kindle if anyone is interested in reading it.

Ok, thankyou David.

From what you say above then, it would appear there is no indication that the police provided the doctor with a time Emily Dimmock last ate, which leads to the drawing of conclusions.
Should such an indication be evident?

I have not had much success with Kindle books, old habits die hard I'm afraid, you cannot beat a good old reliable book.
(Every Kindle I have ever bought, against my better judgement I might add, has been lost to the ether - yes, even the back-ups)

[DJA]

That's certainly how I read it, Jon. Unless I'be overlooked it, Bond doesn't directly mention the stomach's location in the room. But the intestines were reportedly on the right side of the bed, so the "remains of the stomach attached to the intestines" would be there too. And presumably a portion of indeterminate size was left in the abdomen.

Well spotted.
Implies the stomach was cut at the gastric cardia,or lower,which makes sense.
Probably done similar many times back in my hunting days.Just part of getting rid of the guts.(No offense GUT )
Reckon Jack was pretty mad with Mary Kelly.
If Hutchinson's statement had any truth to it and the cries of "Oh - Murder" are related to the actual murder,there is the possibility that Jack came calling with some fush and chups (for our Kiwi members) around 2.45/3.00 am.
Well done Red!

[Wickerman]

I know it's been discussed oft times before, but my problem with the "oh murder" theory is that it's inconsistent with what I believe to be JtR's mature MO, i.e. attacking his victims quickly from behind, giving them little chance to resist. Of course, Kelly wasn't Mercado a JtR victim, but I believe she most probably was.

What stays at the back of my mind is that these women would come and go at all hours of the day and night, and visit each other for a variety of reasons.
We have a perfect example in Sarah Lewis, who visited a friends house at 2:30 in the morning.
We also have Catherine Pickett who knocked on Kelly's door at 7:30 that morning to borrow a shawl.

The cry of, "Oh murder" is better explained to my mind as coming from someone who stumbled on the crime. Possibly a nighttime visitor who knocked at the door, but receiving no acknowledgement, but noticing the light of a fire through the windows, she peeked through one of the holes in the glass, pushing back the curtain/coat she saw a sight that took her breath away....., "Oh, murder!"

If this is what happened, the fact she never came forward is not at all surprising to me.