"Murder...!" cry

[c.d.]

To claim she knew her killer, does not quite jive with the idea that a burglar broke in to murder her.

That is an example of 'special pleading' at its worst

I agree, which is why I believe that she knew her killer and let him in.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

I agree, which is why I believe that she knew her killer and let him in.

c.d.

I'm flexible on the definition of "knew". She only needs to have entertained him once before to know him. But in that respect he could still be a stranger.
Unless he was a neighbor.

So why couldn't she have brought him in?

[c.d.]

Hello Jon,

Not sure who you are arguing with here me or somebody else. I think the evidence points to her letting somebody in but I can't rule out that she might have gone out to look for customers. I don't think the fact that nobody saw her go out is that compelling since I doubt that her neighbors were keeping a close watch on her door.

I don't think that it was even necessary that she had previously "entertained" her visitor it might have simply been a case of buying her drinks maybe earlier in the week. My gut feeling is that he told her that he would come by at some point but showed up very late.

c.d.

[Abby Normal]

If he'd said that he'd seen her eating from a bag of fish and chips, I'd be more inclined to believe him

I'm only half joking, by the way. A fish supper at approx 2AM would tally nicely with the food being partially digested if she'd been killed a couple of hours later.

Or blotchy treating her to some fish and chips on there way home from the pub.

She didn't go out again after blotchy.

[Abby Normal]

To claim she knew her killer, does not quite jive with the idea that a burglar broke in to murder her.

That is an example of 'special pleading' at its worst

No it's not wicky.

She was more than likely passed out drunk and undressed in bed when she was murdered. If not blotchy it was someone who knew her, knew where she lived. They could have peaked through her window and did the wiindow trick or They could have knocked on her door and when she didn't answer used the window trick.or combo of both. Or the door was unlocked.

And who is the only "witness " who states he stood Right outside her place in the middle of the night? That's right-hutch.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

I agree that she and her killer probably knew each other but that can run the gamut from current or former lover to someone she just met earlier that day.

c.d.

I agree. But I think it's probably something closer to inbetween.

[Abby Normal]

I agree, which is why I believe that she knew her killer and let him in.

c.d.

Hi cd
While I think that's more likely then her going out again, to me everything points to her being passed out and in bed when murdered. Which means someone came in on their own.

[c.d.]

Hello Abby,

Appearing to be passed out or asleep isn't the same thing as actually being in those conditions. I can't rule it out but I have never understood why someone would try to come in on their own and risk her waking up and yelling as opposed to being invited in.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

No it's not wicky.

She was more than likely passed out drunk and undressed in bed when she was murdered.

So you don't believe those 'defensive' wounds, are defensive wounds?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

Appearing to be passed out or asleep isn't the same thing as actually being in those conditions. I can't rule it out but I have never understood why someone would try to come in on their own and risk her waking up and yelling as opposed to being invited in.

c.d.

Hi cd
I see what your saying but as I mentioned earlier, they might have knocked first and when she didn't answer, came in.

[Abby Normal]

So you don't believe those 'defensive' wounds, are defensive wounds?

not really, but even if they were it doesn't negate her waking up as she's being initially attacked in bed.


However, I see the cuts through the corner of the sheet as indicating the killer may have put the sheet over her face as he cut through it to cut her throat. Which would indicate not only was she asleep when initially attacked but that they knew each other since he didn't want her to see who her killer was and or he didn't want to look at her face as he killed her.

[Wickerman]

not really, but even if they were it doesn't negate her waking up as she's being initially attacked in bed.

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.

However, I see the cuts through the corner of the sheet as indicating the killer may have put the sheet over her face as he cut through it to cut her throat. Which would indicate not only was she asleep when initially attacked but that they knew each other since he didn't want her to see who her killer was and or he didn't want to look at her face as he killed her.

I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.



That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of.
Do you remember where you read that?

[Michael W Richards]

I agree, which is why I believe that she knew her killer and let him in.

c.d.

It seems that we can agree on some things cd, though perhaps not what evidence might be used to support that position.

Sam, on the partially digested food, I believe this indicates that she was killed not long after ingesting that final meal, correct? What was in Blotchy's pail? Or what if they stopped on the way back and ate while walking? I don't disregard Blotchy as a potential suspect here, he is the last person seen with the victim alive in a reliable witness account. And we don't have a curtain call for him.

But if my supposition is correct, its unlikely that he was still there at 3:45. I think he may have departed before Elizabeth came in.

Having some experience with spirits also , I do understand the second wind principle, but by the description of Marys entrance to the courtyard and her subsequent serenading I think the woman might be done for the night. If she needed food, ok, I can see that, but with what money? As far as we know she left with only the coin Maria gave her, and since she is obviously drunk when arriving home we can assume her drinks were purchased for her..maybe by Blotchy. She was reluctant to solicit recently up until this point and McCarthy himself acknowledges that arrears are hard to get, she had no need to go out again unless for food.

I think its more likely Blotchy bought her a snack on the way back, and her digestion rate decreased when she fell asleep. When the killer arrives before 4am, a murder within the hour might make the stomach evidence appear as if she had just eaten.

[Michael W Richards]

As far as the discussion on what position she was in at the moment her throat was cut, the evidence suggests she was facing the partition wall, on her right side, on the right hand side of the bed. If she was asleep or falling into sleep the startled woman might have flailed her arms initially in some sort of defensive manner. And that why I believe the left hand and arm nicks are there.

[Abby Normal]

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.




I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.



That would cause the saturation of the sheet beneath her, but there is no cuts in that sheet that I know of.
Do you remember where you read that?

hey wick

I thought I was the only one who does not automatically accept they are defensive wounds.
If the mutilations were organized, methodical even clinical, it could be argued that haphazard slashes on her arms are defensive wounds. But all the mutilations are disorganized, there's no method, it's just a hack and slash all over her body, so there's less cause to view those wounds as defensive, in my opinion.

I disagree. I think the killer was organized, knew what he wanted and liked and was even clinical. so to speak. I don't see this as some frenzied, high energy attacking with the knife (after the initial throat cut), like you see on most victims of an obvious sexual murder-where the victim has been violently stabbed a million times. blood spatter and "throw off blood"all about.

This was a killer, who enjoyed what his knife could do to the female body. taking his time, enjoying the cuts-savoring it. its also exhibited in the exteraneous cuts to eddowes.

if there is any defensive wounds-ithink its morelikely the wounds to the thumb and back of the hand.

I don't recall the sheets being cut?
Saturated with blood yes, but no mention of cuts through the sheet.

I cant find it-I'm research challenged. I know its out there-theres been extensive discussions about it on here.

If she was face down, with the killer on her back, he pulls her head up by the hair and slashed around her throat.

yes. absolutely. could have been done this way. any possible defensive wounds though don't really say much to me anyway(and I don't really know if there are any) as she could have woken up briefly as shes first being attacked.