"Murder...!" cry

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, on the partially digested food, I believe this indicates that she was killed not long after ingesting that final meal, correct?

That's what I'd suggest. I think I'd be correct in saying that the digestive juices would have continued to break down the food for a short while after death, so the fact that the fish was partially digested might mean that she was killed comparatively soon after eating it. I recall reading that, compared to other meat, fish protein is more easily broken down - owing to its leanness and "looser" structure, I presume.

[GUT]

Digestion of fish varies by the type of fish somewhere between two and 24 hours.

Potatos about an hour, maybe slightly longer if fried in fat.

[Sam Flynn]

Digestion of fish varies by the type of fish somewhere between two and 24 hours.

We're not talking about digestion as in the complete breakdown and absorption of nutrients via the different parts of the alimentary tract, but the breakdown of the structure of fish protein in the stomach. Unless a person was extremely ill, I can't imagine that too many food products would stay in the stomach for a full 24 hours.

[Wickerman]

Today's determination of the rate of digestion for fish & potatoes is likely more refined than it was in 1888.
So today's numbers are likely not going to help us much.

What we do not know is what the digestion rate was assumed to be for these foods in the late 19th century. Only if we find that can we try reverse engineer Dr. Bond's estimated time of death.
Personally, I doubt any doctor would offer an estimate that is based on the time of consumption if no time was given to the doctor.

When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper.

Abberline had to have provided Phillips (and subsequently Dr. Bond) with a time of consumption, the fact the need for this detail was not uncovered by the press is not suprising to me.

[GUT]

Problem being we don't know when she ate the food so it doesn't really add anything to the case.

[Sam Flynn]

What we do not know is what the digestion rate was assumed to be for these foods in the late 19th century. Only if we find that can we try reverse engineer Dr. Bond's estimated time of death.

In the 19th century, as now, the presence of partly broken-down fish in the stomach would suggest that the food had been consumed a couple of hours before the relevant enzyme (pepsin) had ceased to be viable.

Problem being we don't know when she ate the food so it doesn't really add anything to the case.

True, but assuming the ~4AM cry of "Murder" was indeed hers, we can propose that she had been out and about at around 2AM, at which time she probably ate her last meal.

[c.d.]

"When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper."

This seems like a reasonable assumption. But how many commercial places in Whitechapel serving fish and potatoes would have been open at 2AM? I can't imagine too many. Following this lead Abberline would have sent men to check them out and asked if a young, attractive, redheaded woman had been there late at night. Hard to believe that this couldn't have been done and since we have no mention of it by the police I think we have to look for another source of her last meal.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

"When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper."

This seems like a reasonable assumption.

Through 21st century eyes, of course. Not so sure about the 19th, when such (modern day) routine investigative tools as forensics, fingerprinting and tracker-dogs were still very much things of the future.

[GUT]

"When digested food is found in the stomach the importance of this find is appreciated by both the medical men and the police. Phillips had to have informed Abberline what was found, and Abberline is then tasked with finding the source of that fish & potato supper."

This seems like a reasonable assumption. But how many commercial places in Whitechapel serving fish and potatoes would have been open at 2AM? I can't imagine too many. Following this lead Abberline would have sent men to check them out and asked if a young, attractive, redheaded woman had been there late at night. Hard to believe that this couldn't have been done and since we have no mention of it by the police I think we have to look for another source of her last meal.

c.d.

Seems there were a lot of places selling food all hours of the day, at least one other murder here on Casebook references going out to get hubby food at about 1:00 am. Henry Mayhew also talks about it in one of his books.

[c.d.]

Sorry, Sam but your response goes by me. Wouldn't Abberline have been told the basis for the TOD and wouldn't he have tried to find those places as suggested above?

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Sorry, Sam but your response goes by me. Wouldn't Abberline have been told the basis for the TOD and wouldn't he have tried to find those places as suggested above?

It's by no means a given, CD. Besides, perhaps he did - it was a notoriously short inquest, and not much has been left to posterity.

As the saying goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[GUT]

Here's what I was looking for Elizabeth Mahoney at Tabram's inquest



I live at 37 [sic] George-yard-buildings, Whitechapel - a block of model dwellings - and am a married woman, my husband, Joseph, being a carman, while I work at a match factory at Stratford, where I work from nine in the morning, usually, till about seven o'clock at night. So far as I can remember, I have occupied rooms in the present house for about eight months. Monday was Bank Holiday, and my husband and I were out all day, and did not return until twenty minutes to two on Tuesday morning. We went straight up to our room, and after taking off my hat and cloak, I came down again and went to a chandler's shop in Thrawl-street to buy some provisions for supper. I came back having been gone about five minutes; and after having supper we went to bed. On neither occasion, either in coming up or going down the stairs, did I see the body of a woman lying there. It is quite possible that a body might have been there, and that I did not notice it, because the stairs are very wide and were completely dark, all the lights having, as usual, been turned out at eleven o'clock. I did not get up till half-past eight in the morning, and during the night my attention was not attracted by a noise or disturbance of any kind. I did not know of the body of the deceased having been found on the stairs till about ten o'clock on Tuesday morning.

[c.d.]

Seems there were a lot of places selling food all hours of the day, at least one other murder here on Casebook references going out to get hubby food at about 1:00 am. Henry Mayhew also talks about it in one of his books.

Well since Mary didn't have a car and was therefore walking and since it was late at night a reasonable assumption would be that it was somewhere close. It does not seem an insurmountable task to find out where she went.

c.d.

[c.d.]

Hello Sam,

Assuming that Abberline was told the TOD wouldn't a seasoned detective such as himself have asked what that was based upon? Yes, we have to make assumptions but this sounds like pretty much a done deal to me.

c.d.

[Sam Flynn]

Well since Mary didn't have a car and was therefore walking and since it was late at night a reasonable assumption would be that it was somewhere close. It does not seem an insurmountable task to find out where she went.

True enough, but the important question is less one of where she went, but when she ate. To put it in a quasi-equation form:

Time of Eating = (Time of "Murder!" cry) - (Approx time for fish to appear partially-digested in stomach)